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The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

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Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#21

Post by joseluisq »

mmastrac wrote: post #7

Notarization has been a nightmare of a solution to a problem that isn't effective. You can get practically as much security by pushing malware signatures to the client without the massive privacy overreach of having Apple archive each and every bit of code that you generate for distribution. This is just Apple's overreach extended to the desktop. Excessive control that makes developer's lives hell while adding barely…

Honestly I never have seen such piece of crap like "Notarization". One of the Apple's failures ever (if is not the most one).

A nightmare (and not cheap) to deal with it as a developer.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#22

Post by gnrlst »

threeseed wrote: post #20
maxwell wrote: post #2

Apple devices are becoming increasingly unusable for developers. Fantastic opportunity for Linux apps to gain more dev resources, as anyone with a bit of foresight sees little future in macOS, iOS, Windows, or Android as development platforms.

This comment could have been written a decade ago and it was as laughable back then as it is today. Developers do not dictate the success of a platform. Users do. And they don’t want Linux on the desktop.

I'm not so sure. It's a chicken egg problem: if developers get so frustrated that they suddenly start building great experiences on Linux, the users will flock there. It won't be a fast exodus, and it won't be clear cut, but it will set in motion a transition. Developers follow demand, but users follow supply. If enough developers create supply elsewhere, and that supply gets interesting, users will come.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#23

Post by pornel »

I've just barely got my app working with code signing (using desperate amount of self-checks and fixups for when Xcode messes up the build or signing decides to use xattrs, which doesn't survive in normal archive formats).

Now I'm battling with Notarization which is exactly this hell that either pretends to work and doesn't, or spits inscrutable errors and sends me in circles between multiple tools and services.

And these days all the documentation that Apple produces is in form of brief mentions in WWDC videos. Aaaarrggh!

I'm seriously considering switching to WASM or just abandoning my apps.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#25

Post by maxwell »

threeseed wrote: post #20
maxwell wrote: post #2

Apple devices are becoming increasingly unusable for developers. Fantastic opportunity for Linux apps to gain more dev resources, as anyone with a bit of foresight sees little future in macOS, iOS, Windows, or Android as development platforms.

This comment could have been written a decade ago and it was as laughable back then as it is today. Developers do not dictate the success of a platform. Users do. And they don’t want Linux on the desktop.

Why do users choose a platform? Apps. Who makes the apps?

Developers embraced Windows over Mac, users followed. (Until iOS development made Mac's the default dev machine.) Developers embraced iOS and Android over Symbian and webOS.

Windows and Mac were great development platforms ten years ago, and iOS and Android were way better than the now-dead competition.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#26

Post by chrisallick »

What a fantastic write up. So many of us are familiar with the "quirky" parts of the apple development ecosystem and the self-gaslighting effect of trying to solve problems that are non-existent and yet persistent.

This really captured the constant "wtf" of building against the sloppy moving target.

But... its still better than a lot of toolchains/ecosystems, and when it all does work, for 1 month a year lol, it's great!

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#27

Post by jchb »

pornel wrote: post #23

I've just barely got my app working with code signing (using desperate amount of self-checks and fixups for when Xcode messes up the build or signing decides to use xattrs, which doesn't survive in normal archive formats). Now I'm battling with Notarization which is exactly this hell that either pretends to work and doesn't, or spits inscrutable errors and sends me in circles between multiple tools and services. And…

> And these days all the documentation that Apple produces is in form of brief mentions in WWDC videos. Aaaarrggh!

There's actually a very detailed guide that explains both how to do it from the Xcode UI, and from the command line: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/notarizin...

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#28

Post by Angostura »

AlexandrB wrote: post #6
pwinnski wrote: post #3

If you're going to rant about details, it helps to actually get the details right. For example, showing a screenshot that doesn't contain the word "malware" and then saying: > Using my application name and the word "malware" in one sentence is suggestive and extremely offensive by Apple. Does not fill me with much hope that the author is detail-oriented. I'll keep reading, and I know already that the notarizing proce…

Is the difference between "malware" and "malicious software" really that meaningful that it undermines the overall point of the piece?

For me, yes - it did undermine the case that the author was making. It was sloppy. If he got this one simple thing wrong, can I trust his other complaints?

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#29

Post by threeseed »

gnrlst wrote: post #22
threeseed wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment could have been written a decade ago and it was as laughable back then as it is today. Developers do not dictate the success of a platform. Users do. And they don’t want Linux on the desktop.

I'm not so sure. It's a chicken egg problem: if developers get so frustrated that they suddenly start building great experiences on Linux, the users will flock there. It won't be a fast exodus, and it won't be clear cut, but it will set in motion a transition. Developers follow demand, but users follow supply. If enough developers create supply elsewhere, and that supply gets interesting, users will come.

Many OEMs including large ones like Dell have built Linux desktops and laptops over the years. No one buys them.

It’s not because of the lack of apps but because the basics are so poor e.g. broken sleep mode, driver instability, poor battery life, changing UI etc

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#30

Post by Jcowell »

maxwell wrote: post #25
threeseed wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment could have been written a decade ago and it was as laughable back then as it is today. Developers do not dictate the success of a platform. Users do. And they don’t want Linux on the desktop.

Why do users choose a platform? Apps. Who makes the apps? Developers embraced Windows over Mac, users followed. (Until iOS development made Mac's the default dev machine.) Developers embraced iOS and Android over Symbian and webOS. Windows and Mac were great development platforms ten years ago, and iOS and Android were way better than the now-dead competition.

Yes but it means nothing if consumers are not buying the hardware with Linux. The average consumer is not going to put Linux on their computer if it’s not as simple as downloading a browser or upgrading an operating system.
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