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FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

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Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#21

Post by atlasunshrugged »

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

Yeah, I'm sympathetic to the government wanting to protect the health of folks (or if you're a cynic like me, making sure that citizens are productive for longer and don't use as many healthcare resources) but this feels super paternalistic. Why not just dramatically increase the taxes so people can still choose to pay a high price if they want to?

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#22

Post by awillen »

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

Because our tax dollars pay for Medicare/Medicaid, so for those people who don't have private insurance, they're saddling society with the costs of their choices.

In general I lean libertarian and agree that banning things isn't great, but if you want to make your own choices, you have to bear the costs of those choices. If you want to waive your right to government funded healthcare, then you ought to be able to make whatever unhealthy choices you want.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#24

Post by ksherlock »

andiareso wrote: post #10
endisneigh wrote: post #3

I wonder if there’s ever been a study comparing the effects of banning compared to ultra high taxation of products. I understand that there are groups that are negatively affected but is banning even effective in improving health outcomes in this case? In my imaginary world the tax would be extremely high and diverted to things in the same area that have the opposite effect: e.g make cheeseburgers more expensive and…

Honestly I completely agree. Taxation seems to be the only way to actual instigate change. Too high though you would likely lead to the same result as a full ban. I could see no real reason for a "blackmarket" to exist for menthol cigarettes as the consumption of them has remained pretty much the same over the last 10 years.

Eric Garner was choked to death by the NY police for selling loose cigarettes. That was 7 years ago.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#25

Post by endisneigh »

Alupis wrote: post #16
endisneigh wrote: post #3

I wonder if there’s ever been a study comparing the effects of banning compared to ultra high taxation of products. I understand that there are groups that are negatively affected but is banning even effective in improving health outcomes in this case? In my imaginary world the tax would be extremely high and diverted to things in the same area that have the opposite effect: e.g make cheeseburgers more expensive and…

People will rationalize the choice (since it's still available) and end up spending more on the same item, which doesn't reduce usage - it just means the people using this item now have less money than before. So, if the goal is to remove the item entirely, it has to be banned from production/import rather than highly taxed. I don't really think bans are great either - we're all adults and can make our own choices. P…

The point isn’t just to tax, but to use the funds to create things that are significantly cheaper and reverse the effect.

Taxing obviously affects the demand and cost of consumption but that money should go somewhere useful, ideally not into the ether that is government spending.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#26

Post by kube-system »

awillen wrote: post #22
veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

Because our tax dollars pay for Medicare/Medicaid, so for those people who don't have private insurance, they're saddling society with the costs of their choices. In general I lean libertarian and agree that banning things isn't great, but if you want to make your own choices, you have to bear the costs of those choices. If you want to waive your right to government funded healthcare, then you ought to be able to mak…

Just tax cigarettes to the equivalent or greater than the amount of dollars of burden they place on the healthcare system. Make smokers pay for their own choices.

Externalized costs are the root of many seemingly insurmountable societal problems, and most can be fixed by simply accounting for the costs appropriately.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#27

Post by LargeWu »

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

I think a more accurate way of framing it is "Menthols have been targeted specifically to black people, and also, they're even more harmful than regular cigarettes". It's definitely not "let's take this away because black people like it".

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#28

Post by dubcanada »

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

If you are going to provide any kind free or discounted health care, the best way to make that cheaper is to restrict people from doing damaging things.

So ya healthcare.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#29

Post by ketzo »

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

Smoking is really, really, really bad for you. It’s much worse, and much harder to stop, the earlier you start. Banning flavors 1) stops some overall consumption 2) especially stops youth consumption.

Lifetime healthcare costs for the negative externalities of a pack-a-day smoker can reach into seven figures. And most people, frankly, don’t pay that themselves. It’s a tremendous burden on our healthcare system.

We ban lead paint, even though it’s super cheap and makes for vibrant colors. I honestly don’t see how this is any different.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#30

Post by howeyc »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #11
benjohnson wrote: post #5

Frankly this seems paternalistic. It's hard for me to read this and not translate it as: "We found something non-white people enjoy and we're going to ruin it. For their own good."

New Zealand has an age requirement for tobacco, and has also (edit: proposed) to ban sales of it entirely based on birth year (2004 and forward) to phase out its consumption. I’d say this doesn’t go far enough. We’ve known for over half a century the damage tobacco consumption does to a person’s body. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/16/new-zealand-ai...

Amazing how positions differ.

I'm of the opinion you can ruin your own body all you want. As long as you don't breath it into my face, have at it. I wouldn't advise anyone to take up smoking though.

I think you should be able to buy cocaine (as an example) as easily as tobacco.

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