Pictures reveal the isolated lives of Japan’s social recluses (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Pictures reveal the isolated lives of Japan’s social recluses (2018)

#21

Post by mwfunk » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

durnygbur wrote: post #7

The basic needs of a man until his late 30s are quite straightforward. If there is no chance for sex, and professional endeavours deliver more stress than anything else, then why bother with the rest? Saying this from completely different perspective - of a native citizen of less developed EU country, the pandemic measures and shutdowns almost haven't changed my lifestyle.

If those are the only things that makes someone happy (it's not necessarily; all people are different, but let's say those are the basic needs at work here), and they aren't getting either of those things, then they can either give up become shut-ins and stay on that trajectory, or they can do everything they can to figure out how become the kind of person they want to be, or at least become a happier or wiser person. Those are the options, perpetually keep trying to become a better version of one's self more capable of happiness (and maybe failing, and probably having some miserable experiences on the way), or give up (and definitely fail, 100% of the time, right out of the gate). Or suicide I guess, but giving up is basically suicide with an exceptionally long and pointless epilogue.

Once somebody gives up, from that point on they are no longer victims but the cause of their own problems. It sucks and it's not fair, but adult life can really suck and is definitely not fair. We only get one shot at it so might as well go out trying to do best we can.

Re: Pictures reveal the isolated lives of Japan’s social recluses (2018)

#22

Post by PragmaticPulp » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

justbored123 wrote: post #15

sneak wrote: post #3

It's a bit interesting that people see this as something that needs "fixing". Is it because it's a psychological disorder? Is it because the parents don't want the financial burden? The pandemic has certainly recently shown me the upsides of withdrawing totally from society. It's not for me (I'm antisocial, not asocial) but I can see why some would prefer it.

Yea, I don't see the problem with it unless the person who is doing it wants to change but can't. These type of people has always existed, they used to be secluded at a monastery and then it was socially acceptable for them to be isolated all of their lives doing little or nothing, reading and "praying" and "meditating" all day. How is it much better to slave away at a minimal wage job at a McDonald's or a desk job s…

> These type of people has always existed, they used to be secluded at a monastery and then it was socially acceptable for them to be isolated all of their lives doing little or nothing, reading and "praying" and "meditating" all day.

Monks are not idle.

Monastic life involves significant amounts of manual labor and service work. There is no comparison.

Re: Pictures reveal the isolated lives of Japan’s social recluses (2018)

#23

Post by Bukhmanizer » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

I’m glad the article mostly restrains itself from the “wacky Japan” angle, and states pretty flat out that a “rental sister” is pretty analogous to the role of a social worker.

It’s weird that people marvel over “host” and “hostess” clubs in Japan, when I know of many restaurants in the US and Canada, where the main draw is that a pretty girl/guy will be nice to you for your time there. Is it the exact same thing? No. But it’s clearly serving the same niche.

The difference seems to be that in Japan, the exchange of social services (in the broadest sense) are pretty direct and straightforward. In the west, there’s a taboo about paying for social benefits, so people have to pretend they actually want to spend $20 on a crappy burger that happens to be served by an attractive woman.

Re: Pictures reveal the isolated lives of Japan’s social recluses (2018)

#24

Post by vsareto » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #17

sneak wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We’re not meant to totally avoid touch and eye contact and movement. Meant by whom? Perhaps you aren't, but to make that claim for others is to fundamentally deny them their agency, as if they are mentally incompetent. I don't think these people are, for the most part, mentally incompetent.

I believe there’s research in the social sciences that show that social contact and connections have a very positive impact on people’s health. Of course, such studies measure the average so each individual’s situation may be different. But it’s also not clear to me why it would be different for such large of a group.

I've always wondered if you were a recluse but had an excellent diet/fitness routine that the social contact benefits for health would not matter anymore. It's actually the best possible scenario for getting extremely fit because you don't have a job or social obligations.

Re: Pictures reveal the isolated lives of Japan’s social recluses (2018)

#25

Post by pm90 » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #9

Brief photo theory interlude: beware of rhetoric about photographs "revealing" or "exploring" things. These photographs are telling a story , and have all the subjectivities and editing that we take for granted in written works. They are not empirical evidence, they are works made to represent and persuade. When you see something framed this way, proceed skeptically!

Probably a good idea to be skeptical of everything you read. But often that’s not possible.

Re: Pictures reveal the isolated lives of Japan’s social recluses (2018)

#26

Post by dvh » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #9

Brief photo theory interlude: beware of rhetoric about photographs "revealing" or "exploring" things. These photographs are telling a story , and have all the subjectivities and editing that we take for granted in written works. They are not empirical evidence, they are works made to represent and persuade. When you see something framed this way, proceed skeptically!

Must be a conspiracy.

Re: Pictures reveal the isolated lives of Japan’s social recluses (2018)

#27

Post by kiba » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

kjrose wrote: post #8

"According to him, he is a great man and could do extraordinary things, but he does not always try his best" This is right here probably a major explanation for the whole phenomena. I have seen this exact attitude with individuals who are in their 30s and living with their parents. Something in their upbringing gave them this immense sense of worth but the world isn't rewarding them for the little work they do as muc…

This is right here probably a major explanation for the whole phenomena. I have seen this exact attitude with individuals who are in their 30s and living with their parents. Something in their upbringing gave them this immense sense of worth but the world isn't rewarding them for the little work they do as much as they think it's worth.

This is extremely presumptive and dismissive. Also living with your parents isn't necessary an indicator of a social reclusve.

Re: Pictures reveal the isolated lives of Japan’s social recluses (2018)

#28

Post by jmchuster » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

heterodoxxed wrote: post #10

kjrose wrote: post #8

"According to him, he is a great man and could do extraordinary things, but he does not always try his best" This is right here probably a major explanation for the whole phenomena. I have seen this exact attitude with individuals who are in their 30s and living with their parents. Something in their upbringing gave them this immense sense of worth but the world isn't rewarding them for the little work they do as muc…

> Something in their upbringing gave them this immense sense of worth Is there an abundance of this in Japanese culture that I wasn't aware of?

Probably just an abundance of this in humans in general?

A lovely John Steinbeck paraphrase/misquote from another thread:

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."

Re: Pictures reveal the isolated lives of Japan’s social recluses (2018)

#29

Post by zwkrt » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #3

It's a bit interesting that people see this as something that needs "fixing". Is it because it's a psychological disorder? Is it because the parents don't want the financial burden? The pandemic has certainly recently shown me the upsides of withdrawing totally from society. It's not for me (I'm antisocial, not asocial) but I can see why some would prefer it.

Up until approximately 100-200 years ago (99.999% of humanity’s existence) it was a possibility in most of the world to retreat into complete wilderness and live as a hermit. Now there’s nowhere left to go. We have wilderness but it is owned. We have recluses but they have SSNs and tax burdens and fingerprints. A person who becomes detached from society is put in a mental institution. The result is a kind of cultural fascism/authoritarianism. You MUST live in society, and there is only realistically one to choose from. What an incredibly unprecedented global experiment!

It seems to me that for some the only winning move is not to play.

EDIT: and as I understand it Japan’s culture is especially brutal for some personalities, although I have no first-hand experience. For all the problems we have in the US at least I can be a total wackadoo without feeling like I have failed my entire family and shamed myself and all my acquaintances in the eyes of society.

Re: Pictures reveal the isolated lives of Japan’s social recluses (2018)

#30

Post by justbored123 » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 7:03 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #6

sneak wrote: post #3

It's a bit interesting that people see this as something that needs "fixing". Is it because it's a psychological disorder? Is it because the parents don't want the financial burden? The pandemic has certainly recently shown me the upsides of withdrawing totally from society. It's not for me (I'm antisocial, not asocial) but I can see why some would prefer it.

Wikipedia mentions the 80/50 problem. At some point the Hikkomori will be 50, and their parents, their sole means of support, will be 80. The Hikkomori are not capable of supporting themselves and will run into trouble. I also expect there are health effects to lifelong withdrawal from all social contact and from not leaving one’s room. We’re not meant to totally avoid touch and eye contact and movement.

Sure, but some people suffer lots of abuse in life just by the way they look or their ethnicity, sexuality, etc (black people, Jewish, LGBT, etc. in bad places like the middle east come to mind). Imagine been Jewish or very obviously gay and effeminate in Saudi Arabia.

Some time it's better to be alone that to be abused. I saw a documentary about this -Hikkomori- and that was one of the guy's point. He took a lot of sht from people first at school, then at work and on the street too because of how he looked, and he got tired of having to put up with random shtty people insulting him every single day for years. It wore him down over the years and at home he only had a mother that didn't seem to be supportive at all until he gave up. You can see it in YouTube, is one of the first results. It's sad that he could not make it work by moving around until he found decent people, but some times you just have bad luck.