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63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

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Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#21

Post by de_keyboard »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #13
de_keyboard wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What else can be done? In order to reach climate change targets we must reduce car dependency. How can we do this without nudging people away from cars? And how can we nudge them without taxes?

When people live miles from supermarkets and offices and public transport is not a viable option, which is actually the case for most people outside large cities (and even for some large cities), we are not going to be able to nudge people away from cars, this is simply not realistic. It's not realistic either to suggest that we can just rebuild everything so that cars aren't needed. We can try to build so that car a…

How do you think we got to this state? It didn't happen overnight. Society used to be orientated around walkable neighbours. Sprawl is a relatively recent development and a product of auto-mobilism. I don't think it would be impossible to walk things back.

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#22

Post by mytailorisrich »

de_keyboard wrote: post #21
mytailorisrich wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people live miles from supermarkets and offices and public transport is not a viable option, which is actually the case for most people outside large cities (and even for some large cities), we are not going to be able to nudge people away from cars, this is simply not realistic. It's not realistic either to suggest that we can just rebuild everything so that cars aren't needed. We can try to build so that car a…

How do you think we got to this state? It didn't happen overnight. Society used to be orientated around walkable neighbours. Sprawl is a relatively recent development and a product of auto-mobilism. I don't think it would be impossible to walk things back.

This started during the industrial revolution when factories started to need a large workforce and then it continued with offices that also require a large workforce.

When people could not really commute you had company towns so that people could live right next to work, and also be controlled by their employer.

I don't think people want to live in company housing, surrounded by company employees, they also tend to change jobs more often, with both spouses working (so likely 2 different employers).

"Auto-mobilism" is not going anywhere as long as this is the case and I don't see any indication that it is changing. Remote work can help reduce the need for commuting but it won't make it disappear.

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#23

Post by EdwinLarkin »

ericmay wrote: post #20
EdwinLarkin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car == freedom. I can literally get up in the middle of the night and be at my parents house in 30 minutes. With public transport I could barely make it in 3 hours.

Unfortunately I just can't get empathize much with this viewpoint. I mean it's fine if you want to own a car, but to the extent it means that we have to suck the planet dry of resources and live increasingly isolated lives to support car infrastructure - I just can't get on board with that. My tax dollars are being wasted over it.

Your viewpoint is ideological.If you believe in preserving planet earth then what you want is rationing resources.

And that inevitably leads to communism.

I believe saving the earth is impossible with that kind of strategy.There's 3BN of people that will want the same kind of living standards like the rich west and you dont have any right nor influence on what they will do.

It's very similar to what we have done during this pandemic with lockdowns.It just did not work and prolonged the inevitable.

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#24

Post by ericmay »

EdwinLarkin wrote: post #23
ericmay wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I just can't get empathize much with this viewpoint. I mean it's fine if you want to own a car, but to the extent it means that we have to suck the planet dry of resources and live increasingly isolated lives to support car infrastructure - I just can't get on board with that. My tax dollars are being wasted over it.

Your viewpoint is ideological.If you believe in preserving planet earth then what you want is rationing resources. And that inevitably leads to communism. I believe saving the earth is impossible with that kind of strategy.There's 3BN of people that will want the same kind of living standards like the rich west and you dont have any right nor influence on what they will do. It's very similar to what we have done duri…

Ok that's fine, but then I may as well use as much resources as possible because fuck it?

Let's build lots of unsustainable suburbs - I mean literally unsustainable as in we won't be able to pave the roads or repair bridges and then when that happens we'll just build some more and keep doing that over and over and to what end?

I'm anti-communism because command economies suck. I'm capital C Capitalist. But what we're discussing here isn't an economic system, it's a public policy system. The government builds the roads, and creates the building standards, and creates zoning laws, and all of that. The military industrial complex (among other things) helps secure cheap oil to fuel this lifestyle - that costs money. This shit isn't cheap and that's not even taking into account the actual raw materials and resources.

It's absurd that we've intentionally built societies around "one person gets in this 2,000 pound machine and uses it to drive a mile down the road" - you could just build cities better and walk. Hell you can do this and keep your car for these inconsequential use cases. The problem is you're defending the enforcement of car use. That's stupid. Sorry.

The other 3bn people won't get to have the same living standards. The planet isn't big enough. We'll trend toward a median over time instead which will certainly lead to a quality of life change for the west. The question is do you want to be driving a car and paying $15/gallon for gas or would you rather spend $15/lb for a high-quality tuna steak from a local store you can walk to?

I don't view cars as necessary for people to live. There's no reason to design an entire society such that they are necessary, except of course government subsidies to the construction industry (jobs program) and the automobile industry. You complain about communism yet are happy with the government subsidizing unnecessary jobs and construction projects, propping up industries that would otherwise die, and using tools like minimum parking requirements and building new roads to do it.

You can call that ideological as if it's some sort of insult or bad thing. Doesn't really matter much. If I'm ideological and have a vision for how things could be, you're ideological and can't see past how things are today.

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#25

Post by EdwinLarkin »

ericmay wrote: post #24
EdwinLarkin wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your viewpoint is ideological.If you believe in preserving planet earth then what you want is rationing resources. And that inevitably leads to communism. I believe saving the earth is impossible with that kind of strategy.There's 3BN of people that will want the same kind of living standards like the rich west and you dont have any right nor influence on what they will do. It's very similar to what we have done duri…

Ok that's fine, but then I may as well use as much resources as possible because fuck it? Let's build lots of unsustainable suburbs - I mean literally unsustainable as in we won't be able to pave the roads or repair bridges and then when that happens we'll just build some more and keep doing that over and over and to what end? I'm anti-communism because command economies suck. I'm capital C Capitalist. But what we're…

I understand your viewpoint but you dont understand mine.And you probably never will.It's not your fault and I wont call you out on arrogance or ignorance or anything like that.It's impossible to re-live the experience.

You see I was born to an Eastern European country to a poor family.It was not anything like the US centric media portrays it to be.Definitely not africa or super exaggerated levels of poverty.

But we have not had the means to acquire wealth.My family did not have the opportunity to do so.My parents nor my grandparents or my grand-grand parents had that opportunity.

You on the other hand were born to a country with excess.Excess abundance of resources and wealth.

You have seen that excess yourself and it tainted you.It made you realize that you could live more sustainably.

You see I was born to such country were "sustainable" was the default mode of living.

You cant demand austerity from your experience of excess.

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#26

Post by de_keyboard »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #22
de_keyboard wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you think we got to this state? It didn't happen overnight. Society used to be orientated around walkable neighbours. Sprawl is a relatively recent development and a product of auto-mobilism. I don't think it would be impossible to walk things back.

This started during the industrial revolution when factories started to need a large workforce and then it continued with offices that also require a large workforce. When people could not really commute you had company towns so that people could live right next to work, and also be controlled by their employer. I don't think people want to live in company housing, surrounded by company employees, they also tend to c…

You are assuming that commutes are only possible by private car. Sure some of them are, but it would be preferable if commutes were by foot, bike, train, bus... and private car a distant last. This has been achieved in a few places in the world, most of them in Europe.

You get the outcomes you build for, when it comes to transport infrastructure.

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#27

Post by ericmay »

EdwinLarkin wrote: post #25
ericmay wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok that's fine, but then I may as well use as much resources as possible because fuck it? Let's build lots of unsustainable suburbs - I mean literally unsustainable as in we won't be able to pave the roads or repair bridges and then when that happens we'll just build some more and keep doing that over and over and to what end? I'm anti-communism because command economies suck. I'm capital C Capitalist. But what we're…

I understand your viewpoint but you dont understand mine.And you probably never will.It's not your fault and I wont call you out on arrogance or ignorance or anything like that.It's impossible to re-live the experience. You see I was born to an Eastern European country to a poor family.It was not anything like the US centric media portrays it to be.Definitely not africa or super exaggerated levels of poverty. But we…

I don't understand your argument. I grew up and realized the United States was doing something really dumb, but since I grew up in that environment I can't want things to be different?

You're having a strong reaction to this concept of sustainability. Austerity will come one way or another. Probably better to design and plan for it and build nice neighborhoods where you are not dependent on a large expense than not.

Anyway, what's so austere about walking to the grocery store nearby instead of driving a mile down the road? Why build so that you have to drive a car instead of making it optional?

Btw it would be awesome to buy you a beer if we ever met - nothing personal here. :)

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#28

Post by mytailorisrich »

de_keyboard wrote: post #26
mytailorisrich wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This started during the industrial revolution when factories started to need a large workforce and then it continued with offices that also require a large workforce. When people could not really commute you had company towns so that people could live right next to work, and also be controlled by their employer. I don't think people want to live in company housing, surrounded by company employees, they also tend to c…

You are assuming that commutes are only possible by private car. Sure some of them are, but it would be preferable if commutes were by foot, bike, train, bus... and private car a distant last. This has been achieved in a few places in the world, most of them in Europe. You get the outcomes you build for, when it comes to transport infrastructure.

I don't assume anything.

I have explained that in practice it's not possible for people to live within walking distance from their work. Cycling extends the range but it's still not enough, and not always practical. Public transport is not always viable either because not practical and economical, and people actually don't like to have to rely on public transport for everything unless perhaps (and again) when they live in the centre of large cities.

All of this holds true including in Europe.

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#30

Post by EricE »

redleader55 wrote: post #8

The title is inexact at best, intentionally misleading at worst. Some countries are sampled more than others: 1. UK - 2 cities 2. France - 2 cities 3. Germany - 2 cities 4. Italy - 2 cities 5. Spain - 2 cities 6. Poland - 2 cities 7. Belgium - 2 cities 8. Hungary - 1 cities Other European countries(either from EU, or outside) are not mentioned. EU has 27 member countries, Europe has 50 countries according to Wikipedi…

>The title is inexact at best, intentionally misleading at worst.

And why should anyone be surprised at this?

The press no longer exists to deliver "the news". They are telling a story. Not necessarily the story, but it is certainly a story. Least common denominator pablum designed for engagement and not edification.

Actually it's always been that way; they just really don't even bother trying to disguise it or pretend any more :p

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