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Are Hackers the New Luddites? [audio]

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Re: Are Hackers the New Luddites? [audio]

#21

Beside the point, but IMO, all podcasts should have a transcription option as well. I unfortunately just don't have the attention span to listen to hours of people talking, but put it in text format and I have zero issues.

Startup / App opportunity? Automated transcripts are pretty good.

Re: Are Hackers the New Luddites? [audio]

#22
post #13

I sense a trend https://getpocket.com/explore/item/what-happens-to-tech-work...

Let's be realistic.. let's say you are a c++ programmer and want to learn some modern JS framework. I bet you it will literally take less than a week of concentrated study work for you to become better than 80-90% of people working with it. You can get a book on the subject, there's great tutorials, heck, just reading the reference will get you far. This is true for a lot of stuff on youtube, coursera etc. I believe.…

Everyone has gaps in experience.

I've worked in both of these kinds of domains and different kinds of people thrive at doing each. The kind of problems you face are different.

Most of the backend C++ types I've worked with aren't so great at "design for failure" types of environments whereas on the web development side of things I've found people are much more receptive.

I'm working with a few hundred backend engineers who all have a hard time with thinking infrastructure is always available and can handle infinite throughput. They absolutely stink at reasoning about the network. And these aren't dummies -- they're all MIT/Waterloo/etc grads.

Re: Are Hackers the New Luddites? [audio]

#23

Beside the point, but IMO, all podcasts should have a transcription option as well. I unfortunately just don't have the attention span to listen to hours of people talking, but put it in text format and I have zero issues.

Would you have the same demand for video?

Re: Are Hackers the New Luddites? [audio]

#24
post #19
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grew up reading Phrack too. Work as pentester these days. I understand code deeply, and have tried my hand at everything from memory corruption exploits to javascript SPA apps. I hate technology more and more. It's moving in the wrong direction. Almost everything technological seems to be used to increase control over individuals, extract money, track or predict. No company can seem to withstand the lure and the powe…

I think you can simplify this entire thread into: Software that's built with money, keeps making design decisions that increase profit. Software that's built ambivalent to money, makes other design decisions. Most software is built with money. The only thing that feels like it will fix this is a software/hardware bill of rights. E.g. right to repair, right to source, etc. Otherwise, things will get more exploitive, a…

Frankly, any discussion about this invariably becomes a critique of capitalism. If you further generalize “software” to “organization”, your examples would include the various decisions companies make to increase profit: polluting, exploiting their workers, etc. At some point, we just have to acknowledge that a free market simply does not work.

Re: Are Hackers the New Luddites? [audio]

#25

Beside the point, but IMO, all podcasts should have a transcription option as well. I unfortunately just don't have the attention span to listen to hours of people talking, but put it in text format and I have zero issues.

Would you have the same demand for video?

For me, yes

Re: Are Hackers the New Luddites? [audio]

#26
post #19
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grew up reading Phrack too. Work as pentester these days. I understand code deeply, and have tried my hand at everything from memory corruption exploits to javascript SPA apps. I hate technology more and more. It's moving in the wrong direction. Almost everything technological seems to be used to increase control over individuals, extract money, track or predict. No company can seem to withstand the lure and the powe…

I think you can simplify this entire thread into: Software that's built with money, keeps making design decisions that increase profit. Software that's built ambivalent to money, makes other design decisions. Most software is built with money. The only thing that feels like it will fix this is a software/hardware bill of rights. E.g. right to repair, right to source, etc. Otherwise, things will get more exploitive, a…

If there is one thing I have learnt about the populace at large is they don't pay much attention to private et el issues but when it affects enough of them they change the law in their favour. Companies get plenty of years even decades to exploit but eventually the mainstream is impacted enough that regulation gets brought down in massive heavy handed ways and often not in a good way. Privacy via GDPR and the "cookie law" before it are examples of the mainstream waking up to problems that impacted them. Get too popular and exploit too much and the mainstream will do something about.

There are movements for taking data entirely away from these companies, movements for repair and a host of other things. Eventually they will more than likely become mainstream and big tech is going to find itself on the end of a lot of regulation especially in the EU. There is no way they show self control before the point where DRM, gambling and engagement mechanics are involved they are simply too profitable.

Re: Are Hackers the New Luddites? [audio]

#27
post #19
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grew up reading Phrack too. Work as pentester these days. I understand code deeply, and have tried my hand at everything from memory corruption exploits to javascript SPA apps. I hate technology more and more. It's moving in the wrong direction. Almost everything technological seems to be used to increase control over individuals, extract money, track or predict. No company can seem to withstand the lure and the powe…

I think you can simplify this entire thread into: Software that's built with money, keeps making design decisions that increase profit. Software that's built ambivalent to money, makes other design decisions. Most software is built with money. The only thing that feels like it will fix this is a software/hardware bill of rights. E.g. right to repair, right to source, etc. Otherwise, things will get more exploitive, a…

Right to source sounds strong, but I am curious about how a right to source for software that's no longer produced would work. This could be very beneficial to society, and perceivably speed up progress quite a bit.

Re: Are Hackers the New Luddites? [audio]

#28
post #2

This is a synopsis of the book described here: https://www.versobooks.com/books/3184-breaking-things-at-wor... Breaking Things at Work. The Luddites Are Right About Why You Hate Your Job, by Gavin Mueller The basic gist is that software is eating people's jobs, and everything has to be an /app/ these days or it's not credible.

Can you explain how this relates to hackers being the new Luddites? I haven’t had a chance to listen to the podcast yet but I can’t see how it’s description or yours relates to the title.

I'm a Luddite and a luddite. There's a distinction that folks fail to make: in my jargon, a Luddite opposes the automation of labor without a plan to support the displaced laborers (as the followers of Ludd), and a luddite opposes the use of technology (a perverse interpretation of Ludd as an opponent of technology)

I automate all kinds of stuff for my job, of course; I'm a cyborg and my brain works better when I can offload processing to a CPU. When I make design decisions that impact laborers at my company, that's something I think a lot about -- if it can make their job less harmful (in terms of RSI, etc), that's great; if I'm going to put somebody out of work, I'll reconsider telling my boss about an option I see.

But lots of tech is totally out of my control. IOT bugs the hell out of me, especially with everything phoning home. I hate that people willingly allow google, amazon, apple, tesla and onstar to straight up listen to every word that's said in their house/car. Hell, I don't even like cars made after the 80s.

When I grew up, there were people who reliably knew how everything in the pedestrian world worked, and could generally be counted on to fix anything that broke (except perhaps RF electronics, people specialize in that because big caps go brrr). But today, pretty much everything is unfixable; even furniture is mostly ikea or (somehow) lesser-quality pressboard crap.

So to me, saying that hackers are the new luddites is a statement about control. We want to own the objects we buy. We want to hack them, fix them, repurpose them. I'm in a relative minority on the labor theory thing

Re: Are Hackers the New Luddites? [audio]

#29
post #12
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I identify as a 'hacker' in the 2600/Phrack tradition, and I definitely feel like a luddite rejecting the centralization of control as everything moves into the cloud, and proliferation of anti-consumer software that disempowers. Linux and BSD are beginning to feel like the last bastions of true user freedom, and the only remaining place that I have any control over my destiny as a user (and creator) of software. DRM…

Grew up reading Phrack too. Work as pentester these days. I understand code deeply, and have tried my hand at everything from memory corruption exploits to javascript SPA apps. I hate technology more and more. It's moving in the wrong direction. Almost everything technological seems to be used to increase control over individuals, extract money, track or predict. No company can seem to withstand the lure and the powe…

Not a pentester but a code monkey. Here is what worries me.

As we get tracked more, algorithms will start making better predictions about us. The negative side of this is that you will get offered ads that are specifically tailored to your interests, at the time you are most likely to buy at a price point you can afford. Essentially you will get controlled and primed by machines to consume, feel certain ways, agree with certain sentiments etc. That's not the kind of dystopia I want to be in.

This is already happening, Facebook has done experiments about user emotions. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/06/28/facebook...

Youtube is using machine learning algorithms for suggesting videos https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.c...

There is nothing to stop a company from manipulating user emotions enough to guide you down the path of buying a product.

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