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Incident: American B38M near Nassau on Mar 29th 2021, pitch trim issue/failure

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Re: Incident: American B38M near Nassau on Mar 29th 2021, pitch trim issue/failure

#21

I'm refusing to fly the MAX, period! The plane is flawed by design...

I have no opinion about flying on this particular plane.

It's not so much MCAS, electric trim, this, or that.

The bigger issue is it's too complicated, has too many features, and the FAA can't adequately oversee testing and certification all the way down the engineering stack. Furthermore, because of pressures to save a buck, Boeing is willing to cut corners and sacrifice safety by slapping a plane together without properly engineering or testing it. Because of this behavior, it's difficult to know how many other problems are lurking around like in the 787.

Re: Incident: American B38M near Nassau on Mar 29th 2021, pitch trim issue/failure

#22
post #5

"- A component of the main electric trim system became inoperative. Our pilots ran the appropriate checklist, which included manually trimming the aircraft. They returned to MIA and landed uneventfully. The issue was not related to MCAS." Indeed. This was a part failing on an aircraft in flight. It landed without incident, and was likely never in any sort of danger. Losing electric trim is an annoyance but also trims…

As I understand it the aircraft has a quite complex relationship with trim because of fundamental aerodynamic flaws (engines are too far forward). Am I right in saying other aircraft e.g. an A320 would handle this sort of failure without as much risk to the plane?

>As I understand it the aircraft has a quite complex relationship with trim because of fundamental aerodynamic flaws (engines are too far forward).

That's not really correct. The engines being in a different position means the aircraft doesn't meet a very specific criterion of the FARs (positive stick force gradient). The 737 Max has the exact same relationship with trim as any other airliner.

>Am I right in saying other aircraft e.g. an A320 would handle this sort of failure without as much risk to the plane?

No. TFA explicitly states this issue was not related to MCAS. It's likely an analogous failure on an A320 or a 737NG would still have necessitated aborting the flight.

Re: Incident: American B38M near Nassau on Mar 29th 2021, pitch trim issue/failure

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MCAS was only installed to cover up aerodynamic changes (not flaws) that would have required greater recertification and retraining of pilots. To save that expense, they covered it up with MCAS so they could say "See, it's just another 737!" which caused all the issues we know so much about.

No, they are legit flaws . https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/boei...

I respectfully disagree. A news article calling them flaws does not make them a flaw. Here's the issue: At lower speeds such as you'd see during a landing approach, the throttle setting of the 737 Max directly affects its pitch. If the pilot were to suddenly reduce throttle, the nose would pitch up. This is due to the engine's more forward position.

The forward position of the engines was done so that they wouldn't have to re-engineer half the plane to fit the larger engines. High bypass turbo fans are big, and they couldn't maintain ground clearance without either moving the engines up higher or making the landing gear longer. To move the engines higher they had to move them forward. So they did.

The new behavior of the aircraft required retraining and making sure pilots knew how the throttle and pitch were related. Mind you, a lot of aircraft have such relationships, so this is not in itself a flaw.

The real flaw came when they decided to replace training with software, and then conveniently forgot to tell anybody about the robo-pilot that they put in the cockpit. THAT was the failure. The airplane itself, even without MCAS at all, would be a bit more of a handful to fly, but nothing terrible. With a properly functioning MCAS, and proper training about how to disable it in case of a problem, the issue is solved. And that's what the FAA believed happened when they recertified the 737 MAX to fly again. But by now the reputation has been tarnished so badly that we're hearing news about unrelated failures because it happened on a 737 MAX.

So you can see the real failure isn't aerodynamic, its pretty much everything else.

If I got any details wrong, I apologize. I'm flying by the seat of my pants on this layman's analysis after a long day.

Re: Incident: American B38M near Nassau on Mar 29th 2021, pitch trim issue/failure

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you’re saying without MCAS the plane flys just as safely but differently which would have required retraining. That’s interesting, thanks!

No, the plane does not fly safely without MCAS. Without the MCAS there the aircraft has a tendency to pitch up, resulting in a stall situation.

LOTS of aircraft have a tendency to pitch up or down based on throttle. This isn't unique to the 737 MAX.

A quick google on "thrust line pitch moment" gave me this: https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/threads/thrust-ang...

  " I want to adjust the thrust angle from where it was (0° with respect to the chord line) to reduce the downward pitching moment when thrust is added (or more importantly the upward pitch moment when thrust is reduced)"

Re: Incident: American B38M near Nassau on Mar 29th 2021, pitch trim issue/failure

#25
post #20

I sympathize with the engineers there. It's like a bug that will not go away in some software. You think you've fixed it and all seems well and you get a good nights sleep with the gleam of satisfaction in your eyes. But the next day your manager says "That bug is still there". You incredulously do not believe that bug report and go to replicate it yourself. And surely, under some edge weird case scenario, it really…

Aerospace engineer here. From TFA: >A component of the main electric trim system became inoperative. Our pilots ran the appropriate checklist, which included manually trimming the aircraft. They returned to MIA and landed uneventfully. The issue was not related to MCAS. That statement is from the airline, not from Boeing, so I'm more inclined to trust it. Additionally, if the airline lies and it turns up on an airwor…

But this doesn't feed the machine that is the 24-hour news cycle. I fully expect cable news to try to declare "more trouble for troubled plane," even though it appears to be a garden variety failure.

Re: Incident: American B38M near Nassau on Mar 29th 2021, pitch trim issue/failure

#26

"- A component of the main electric trim system became inoperative. Our pilots ran the appropriate checklist, which included manually trimming the aircraft. They returned to MIA and landed uneventfully. The issue was not related to MCAS." Indeed. This was a part failing on an aircraft in flight. It landed without incident, and was likely never in any sort of danger. Losing electric trim is an annoyance but also trims…

With respect to the 737-8 MAX though, although in this case it's nothing to do with MCAS, doesn't the 737-8 MAX have smaller radius trim wheels than previous models (so less leverage)?

So in theory, trimming might be more difficult on the MAX than previous 737 models, especially at higher speeds (where there's more force on the control surfaces that would need to be counteracted in the case of runaway trim).

Re: Incident: American B38M near Nassau on Mar 29th 2021, pitch trim issue/failure

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they are legit flaws . https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/boei...

I respectfully disagree. A news article calling them flaws does not make them a flaw. Here's the issue: At lower speeds such as you'd see during a landing approach, the throttle setting of the 737 Max directly affects its pitch. If the pilot were to suddenly reduce throttle, the nose would pitch up. This is due to the engine's more forward position. The forward position of the engines was done so that they wouldn't h…

>At lower speeds such as you'd see during a landing a approach, the throttle setting of the 737 Max directly affects its pitch.

Any conventional airliner has this "flaw". If you are at low airspeed and you push the throttles forward, an A320 will exhibit nose-up pitch, too. It's a direct consequence of having giant engines slung kinda-sorta-underneath the wings of a low-wing monoplane.

Re: Incident: American B38M near Nassau on Mar 29th 2021, pitch trim issue/failure

#28

I'm refusing to fly the MAX, period! The plane is flawed by design...

I have no opinion about flying on this particular plane. It's not so much MCAS, electric trim, this, or that. The bigger issue is it's too complicated, has too many features, and the FAA can't adequately oversee testing and certification all the way down the engineering stack. Furthermore, because of pressures to save a buck, Boeing is willing to cut corners and sacrifice safety by slapping a plane together without p…

This is every commercial plane, though. We've traded more frequent crashes due to human error for fewer, more spectacular crashes due to how complex planes have become.

Re: Incident: American B38M near Nassau on Mar 29th 2021, pitch trim issue/failure

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MCAS was only installed to cover up aerodynamic changes (not flaws) that would have required greater recertification and retraining of pilots. To save that expense, they covered it up with MCAS so they could say "See, it's just another 737!" which caused all the issues we know so much about.

No, they are legit flaws . https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/boei...

So I actually went and found this fabled 245-page report :

https://transportation.house.gov/imo/media/doc/2020.09.15%20...

And this, I think, is where the whole faulty/flawed thing gets introduced :

> Faulty Design and Performance Assumptions.

> Boeing made fundamentally faulty assumptions about critical technologies on the 737 MAX, most notably with MCAS. Based on these faulty assumptions, Boeing permitted MCAS—software designed to automatically[...] It also expected that pilots, who were largely unaware that the system existed, would be able to mitigate any potential malfunction. Boeing also failed to classify MCAS as a safety-critical system, which would have attracted greater FAA scrutiny during the certification process.[...]

So, I would agree that Boeing's design flaw here was not alerting the pilot with a huge red warning light (and being cheeky about re-certification). But I don't think that this report goes so far as to say that the airframe was flawed and therefore necessitated MCAS.

Re: Incident: American B38M near Nassau on Mar 29th 2021, pitch trim issue/failure

#30

Guys, this is a very common and well-known problem. It's been around for over 4 years now. The good news is that instead of nosediving into the ground the 737s can now land and be swapped out. The main take away here is that there are no more fatal crashes. This is a solid improvement for Boeing.

I wonder if people realize it's sarcasm. Nope.

- Poe's law

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