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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

reuters.com

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Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#21

Post by elliekelly »

sharkjacobs wrote: post #15
mlindner wrote: post #3

To repeat the key info from this case that makes one question the NRLB ruling (from reddit originally): The tweet is https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808 > Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcar…

> why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? If you don't think that Elon means employees will lose their stock options if they unionize, then what does he mean?

“It would be a real shame if something were to happen to those stock options once you unionized, wouldn’t it?”

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#22

Post by boustrophedon »

meddlepal wrote: post #11
hellomyguys wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Tesla’s workers can collectively decide for what’s best for themselves?

And Tesla should be allowed every opportunity to stop them. I guess Tesla broke the law in this case, but I do not really agree with the ruling and the law. Musk should be allowed to present the possible downsides.

> And Tesla should be allowed every opportunity to stop them.

We've tried this. People died over it. We enacted laws to prevent it from happening, so that labor can stand on equal ground with capital.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#23

Post by lakecresva »

mlindner wrote: post #3

To repeat the key info from this case that makes one question the NRLB ruling (from reddit originally): The tweet is https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808 > Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcar…

> To repeat the key info from this case that makes one question the NRLB ruling...

These issues (among others) are addressed at length in the NLRB's decision (https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.aspx/09031d45833d3fce) which takes into account probably thousands of pages of briefs, witness statements, and legal analysis.

The decision itself is only ~50 pages and is readable without a legal background. The section "credibility findings" which starts on page 32 might interest you.

The full docket activity page for the case is here (https://www.nlrb.gov/case/32-CA-197020).

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#24

Post by gamblor956 »

1996 wrote: post #18
gamblor956 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Union contracts are employer specific (and in some cases, facility specific), and if the Tesla factory workers unionized, they could negotiate for stock grants. The threat was that Tesla would revoke stock option grants if the workforce unionized, or refuse to negotiate over the availability of stock options, which is illegal under current federal labor regulations. No, most other automakers don't offer stock, becaus…

> Union contracts are employer specific (and in some cases, facility specific), and if the Tesla factory workers unionized, they could negotiate for stock grants If it was my factory, I would cut the stock grant and fire them all - unionized or not - to end a clear message to the other factories: "you only have one job, while I have more than one factory"

Which is illegal under decades-old labor laws...

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#25

Post by viraptor »

meddlepal wrote: post #11
hellomyguys wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Tesla’s workers can collectively decide for what’s best for themselves?

And Tesla should be allowed every opportunity to stop them. I guess Tesla broke the law in this case, but I do not really agree with the ruling and the law. Musk should be allowed to present the possible downsides.

> allowed every opportunity

Unless you're also happy about shooting people starting a union or striking, you should read this article to learn why this is a really bad idea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_th...

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#26

Post by jcims »

dundarious wrote: post #16
DudeInBasement wrote: post #7

If they want to work for the UAW, then they should join GM or other factories. Why join Tesla if you really wanted to work for the UAW?

That logic doesn't hold if you share a belief in Tesla's stated mission "to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport", and also want to be in a union -- which is a reasonable set of beliefs and desires to hold. And I don't see how unions would be intrinsically incompatible with Tesla's mission or operations. There's no reason I know of to hold that it is an immutable fact that Tesla's workers are non-union -- s…

If the plan was to create a new collective with a charter that was consistent with the long view of Tesla while protecting and advocating for labor then you’ve got a fair point.

It seemed to me they were just going to join the UAW.

There are two assembly plants within a few miles of where I grew up in the US. Both Japanese car companies, to this day they aren’t union and they are doing fine. There have been a few dustups from the UAW over the years, but they were never successful in flipping the workforce.

I think the threat of unionizing might help keep Tesla more invested in avoiding the type of environment that would foster broad support of organizing within the company.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#27

Post by astrange »

gamblor956 wrote: post #14
mlindner wrote: post #3

To repeat the key info from this case that makes one question the NRLB ruling (from reddit originally): The tweet is https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808 > Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcar…

Union contracts are employer specific (and in some cases, facility specific), and if the Tesla factory workers unionized, they could negotiate for stock grants. The threat was that Tesla would revoke stock option grants if the workforce unionized, or refuse to negotiate over the availability of stock options, which is illegal under current federal labor regulations. No, most other automakers don't offer stock, becaus…

> Union contracts are employer specific (and in some cases, facility specific), and if the Tesla factory workers unionized, they could negotiate for stock grants.

This is true in the US, but it's not true in other countries which learned from our mistakes and implemented wage boards/sectoral bargaining, where a union contract applies to an entire industry at once. This makes the employer less likely to feel they're becoming uncompetitive by accepting the union, which is good since in the past they tended to react by having all their employees killed by the Pinkertons.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#28

Post by astrange »

1996 wrote: post #18
gamblor956 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Union contracts are employer specific (and in some cases, facility specific), and if the Tesla factory workers unionized, they could negotiate for stock grants. The threat was that Tesla would revoke stock option grants if the workforce unionized, or refuse to negotiate over the availability of stock options, which is illegal under current federal labor regulations. No, most other automakers don't offer stock, becaus…

> Union contracts are employer specific (and in some cases, facility specific), and if the Tesla factory workers unionized, they could negotiate for stock grants If it was my factory, I would cut the stock grant and fire them all - unionized or not - to end a clear message to the other factories: "you only have one job, while I have more than one factory"

Congratulations on committing the same crime as in the article?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#29

Post by jcims »

sharkjacobs wrote: post #15
mlindner wrote: post #3

To repeat the key info from this case that makes one question the NRLB ruling (from reddit originally): The tweet is https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808 > Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcar…

> why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? If you don't think that Elon means employees will lose their stock options if they unionize, then what does he mean?

The likelihood that the UAW would roll in, start collecting dues and then do nothing with the comp structure seems extremely small.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#30

Post by samr71 »

dundarious wrote: post #16
DudeInBasement wrote: post #7

If they want to work for the UAW, then they should join GM or other factories. Why join Tesla if you really wanted to work for the UAW?

That logic doesn't hold if you share a belief in Tesla's stated mission "to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport", and also want to be in a union -- which is a reasonable set of beliefs and desires to hold. And I don't see how unions would be intrinsically incompatible with Tesla's mission or operations. There's no reason I know of to hold that it is an immutable fact that Tesla's workers are non-union -- s…

Unionizing Tesla would almost certainly not "accelerate the advent of sustainable transport". More likely cause it to wither and stagnate for the gain of a privileged few as we saw with GM et al.
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