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An open letter in support of RMS being reinstated by the FSF

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Re: An open letter in support of RMS being reinstated by the FSF

#21

Post by richrichardsson »

gentleman11 wrote: post #6
majkinetor wrote: post #3

For those that are new to this topic this is quite a good read: - https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web

Does anybody else find it a little scary to comment on this topic in case they get called out and targeted as well? The well written link posted to “wetheweb” discusses this a bit. Some quotes: > According to the Atlantic, a full 80 percent of Americans believe that “political correctness is a problem in our country.” While today some smear the free speech movement as a “racist dog-whistle” or a “far-right talking po…

> political correctness has silenced important discussions our society needs to have

It would be interesting to know what are these "important discussions".

> 58% of Americans believe the political climate prevents them from sharing their own political beliefs

I don't think it literally prevents them, more like it makes them scared to share their political beliefs for fear of being called out when those are not "acceptable" beliefs. If anyone can give me an example of some political belief that is not justified in being "unacceptable", I'd be happy to re-evaluate this situation as being bad.

Re: An open letter in support of RMS being reinstated by the FSF

#22

Post by smoldesu »

As little as I like to do this, I think it's important to bring up the "autism" topic, because I see way too many autistic programmers being thrown under the bus for stuff like this. To start, the three smartest programmers I personally know are autistic, and all of them struggle to make sound judgement calls at the drop of a hat. I've seen them lambasted in IRC channels for saying stupid things or slipping up a function name when writing documentation, but every one of them could out-code their harasser at a moments notice. I get the feeling we're in the same boat with RMS, since I've seen his behavior before in neurodivergent programmers: hard-headedness, dedication to a fault, and speaking his mind even when the social repercussions could blow up in his face. His Aspbergers is part of what makes him who he is, and I'd rather have a distastefully transparent board member than a muzzled figurehead. I value Stallman's voice, and I honestly feel bad that his slips are being sensationalized now.

Re: An open letter in support of RMS being reinstated by the FSF

#23

Post by marcodiego »

RMS failed in his way to communicate with people, he hurt people and there are reports of scared away women. The community failed by not calling him on his mistakes, by not making these publicly clear as early as possible disregarding that he is stubborn but changes his mind when bad stances are explained clearly.

His victims should not be blamed, but people around him have to admit there are reasons he is compared to a spoiled child. This has to stop.

For his importance and the willingness to defend points of view which may be inconvenient for most people, he is needed in a movement which requires such a level of dedication and sacrifice. I don't believe there is anybody else who is capable living the way he lives just to stand on the very strict ethical side. He is very much needed.

Cancel culture should be handled carefully, for punishment should not make people give up on trying to improve. But a group should not silence when bad behavior happens.

If rms is to come back caution must be taken. He must be warned at the smallest mistakes, should not be handled as a never wrong semi-god and be encouraged to know when he hurts people and apologize for that. Otherwise the more people and the free software movement will be hurt.

Re: An open letter in support of RMS being reinstated by the FSF

#24

Post by madhadron »

gentleman11 wrote: post #6
majkinetor wrote: post #3

For those that are new to this topic this is quite a good read: - https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web

Does anybody else find it a little scary to comment on this topic in case they get called out and targeted as well? The well written link posted to “wetheweb” discusses this a bit. Some quotes: > According to the Atlantic, a full 80 percent of Americans believe that “political correctness is a problem in our country.” While today some smear the free speech movement as a “racist dog-whistle” or a “far-right talking po…

> Does anybody else find it a little scary to comment on this topic in case they get called out and targeted as well?

Honestly? No.

And the problem with the numbers in that poll is that there is no reason to think that all those people assign the same meaning to the words. Everyone's in favor of "free speech," but can they articulate a nuanced definition of it and the effects on society of that definition?

Re: An open letter in support of RMS being reinstated by the FSF

#25

Post by tpush »

ndr wrote: post #15
phasnox wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to support a guy that says stuff like this: "There is a perverse movement among women to think that they should carry fetuses with Downs' syndrome to term, rather than abort them and try again. ... Next, people will take thalidomide to demonstrate how they can love babies born without limbs." - RMS

You are, of course, free to choose who to support. Does "support RMS being on the FSF board for life" mean supporting him on everything he says, or even suggest supporting him for this quote?

Well, it means supporting the exclusion of every person that feels alienated by Stallman's behavior and publicly stated views. For as long as Stallman's alive.

Irrespective of any moral or ethical concerns, keeping Stallman doesn't seem very pragmatic and forward-looking for an organization that is hurting for young blood anyway.

A leader should be able to recognize when he's driving people away, and act accordingly.

Re: An open letter in support of RMS being reinstated by the FSF

#26

Post by go561192 »

Here's some readings on why many don't want RMS in a leadership position.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21287006

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20994216

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26545420

[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535789

[5] https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-pr...

. .

Some well-regarded papers on sexism in CS, which are still relevant as is evident from some comments in this thread.

[1] Why are There so Few Female Computer Scientists (Ellen Spertus, 1991)

https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/7040

[2] How to Encourage Women in Linux (Val Henson, 2002)

https://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

[3] What Happens to Us Does Not Happen to Most of You (Kathryn S. McKinley, 2018)

https://www.sigarch.org/what-happens-to-us-does-not-happen-t...

[4] Unlocking the Clubhouse: Women in Computing (Jane Margolis and Allan Fisher, 2001)

https://www.amazon.com/Unlocking-Clubhouse-Women-Computing-P...

[5] The Elephant in the Valley (by Michele Madansky and Trae Vassallo, 2015)

https://www.elephantinthevalley.com/

Re: An open letter in support of RMS being reinstated by the FSF

#27

Post by NelsonMinar »

smoldesu wrote: post #22

As little as I like to do this, I think it's important to bring up the "autism" topic, because I see way too many autistic programmers being thrown under the bus for stuff like this. To start, the three smartest programmers I personally know are autistic, and all of them struggle to make sound judgement calls at the drop of a hat. I've seen them lambasted in IRC channels for saying stupid things or slipping up a func…

https://dev.to/baweaver/the-myth-of-the-autistic-jerk-3kjl

Re: An open letter in support of RMS being reinstated by the FSF

#28

Post by coding123 »

richrichardsson wrote: post #21
gentleman11 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anybody else find it a little scary to comment on this topic in case they get called out and targeted as well? The well written link posted to “wetheweb” discusses this a bit. Some quotes: > According to the Atlantic, a full 80 percent of Americans believe that “political correctness is a problem in our country.” While today some smear the free speech movement as a “racist dog-whistle” or a “far-right talking po…

> political correctness has silenced important discussions our society needs to have It would be interesting to know what are these "important discussions". > 58% of Americans believe the political climate prevents them from sharing their own political beliefs I don't think it literally prevents them, more like it makes them scared to share their political beliefs for fear of being called out when those are not "acce…

It's pretty much the same thing for people that say things like all guns should be banned. (This is not a stance I support BTW).

But who knows in ten years the opposite reaction might be true.

Re: An open letter in support of RMS being reinstated by the FSF

#29

Post by gentleman11 »

gentleman11 wrote: post #6
majkinetor wrote: post #3

For those that are new to this topic this is quite a good read: - https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web

Does anybody else find it a little scary to comment on this topic in case they get called out and targeted as well? The well written link posted to “wetheweb” discusses this a bit. Some quotes: > According to the Atlantic, a full 80 percent of Americans believe that “political correctness is a problem in our country.” While today some smear the free speech movement as a “racist dog-whistle” or a “far-right talking po…

I have never gotten more upvotes so quickly but the only comments are by people who felt comfortable because they disagree. That says something

Re: An open letter in support of RMS being reinstated by the FSF

#30

Post by japhib »

junon wrote: post #13
NelsonMinar wrote: post #7

Shame on everyone who signs this letter. I personally know two women who've been sexually harassed by this creep. He has no place in leadership.

So we should be shameful for basing conclusions on what non-anecdotal information we've been exposed to? I've had such encounters with someone many on HN would know. I don't hold anyone accountable for mentioning their name or talking nicely about them because how could they possibly know what happened behind closed doors?

When a person has a critical mass of accusations of sexual assaults, AND they are open about their support (or at least sympathy) for a well-known rapist and pedophile, the accusations start to become more and more plausible.
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