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How do plants extract nutrients from the ground?

permaculture.co.uk

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Re: How do plants extract nutrients from the ground?

#21

Post by thatcat »

jarmitage wrote: post #15
thatcat wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's awesome! The tea thing is a good idea. No one is buying it yet, but the plan is to have some micro rain gardens installed this spring using the tech to reduce the overall area required due to the increased drainage depth and moisture storage. It's essentially an erosion control measure until there is a carbon market and we increase automation. We will also be doing some testing with trees - remediating poor dr…

If you don’t mind me asking, what is/was your educational/career route that led you to the knowledge that you currently have? It seems interestingly diverse, like you have biology, agriculture, but also some mechanical?

I got a degree in biosystems engineering (it covers electrical mechanical and chemical eng broadly from a systems perspective focused on bio production) and worked on research farms (organic academic and private viticulture). Then did some academic soil formulations research in greenhouse / nursery setting. Currently I'm employed part time on upwork doing chemical formulations reverse engineering for green products.

Re: How do plants extract nutrients from the ground?

#23

Post by jarmitage »

thatcat wrote: post #21
jarmitage wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don’t mind me asking, what is/was your educational/career route that led you to the knowledge that you currently have? It seems interestingly diverse, like you have biology, agriculture, but also some mechanical?

I got a degree in biosystems engineering (it covers electrical mechanical and chemical eng broadly from a systems perspective focused on bio production) and worked on research farms (organic academic and private viticulture). Then did some academic soil formulations research in greenhouse / nursery setting. Currently I'm employed part time on upwork doing chemical formulations reverse engineering for green products.

Fascinating, thank you - I have some more questions if you don't mind! Was that your first degree or did you switch to this domain from something else? Would you care to name/recommend your degree program, and any key texts, for someone interested in following in your footsteps?

Re: How do plants extract nutrients from the ground?

#24

Post by goda90 »

thomasfromcdnjs wrote: post #2

I've been doing quite a lot of gardening in the past 3 years. There is a plethora of home gardeners and/or permaculture resources on the internet that generally like as much organic matter as possible. I some of that strategy as it's convenient at home to supply nutrients to plants without much work. But, I can't help but feel it's all sort of wish washy science. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHZHy3_7PPE ^ I found…

>He uses knowledge from the agricultural industry instead of the "organic" approach.

I can't help but wonder if his knowledge applies specifically to cases where chemicals like fungicide are used. There are quite a few species of soil fungus that are beneficial to plants, including root protection, but these can be wiped out by fungicides, leaving a blank slate for harmful fungus and other pests to take hold. So it would make sense that if there were no beneficial fungus present, then organic matter would be a rot threat.

Re: How do plants extract nutrients from the ground?

#25

Post by thatcat »

jarmitage wrote: post #23
thatcat wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a degree in biosystems engineering (it covers electrical mechanical and chemical eng broadly from a systems perspective focused on bio production) and worked on research farms (organic academic and private viticulture). Then did some academic soil formulations research in greenhouse / nursery setting. Currently I'm employed part time on upwork doing chemical formulations reverse engineering for green products.

Fascinating, thank you - I have some more questions if you don't mind! Was that your first degree or did you switch to this domain from something else? Would you care to name/recommend your degree program, and any key texts, for someone interested in following in your footsteps?

I got a visual comm degree, worked in video production for awhile, but decided to change fields. It kinda took a lot of time and set me back, but I prefer this kind of work. UC Davis has a good ag program, I think Purdue is highest ranked, Arkansas and NC state are good too. I went to UTK, it was not bad. The course work was just generic engineering stuff until junior level - then you get some really interesting bioprocess industry stuff and Sr level is focused completely a series of design projects. Learned the most there really, because it's about being able to quickly do research and apply it to a design that has to be presented for critiqued review. It's pretty fun for me to get presented with a new little niche problem and go down the rabbit hole trying to figure it out - after you do that a bunch of times you build up a pretty diverse knowledge base and it makes things quicker.

If you tell me which subject you're trying to learn more about I could recommend something. There's not really any text that covers that field broadly, you might start with a soil science book - I'd recommend Soil Science Simplified as intro or The Nature and Properties of Soils for a complete in depth text. Those won't tell you anything about nursery soils though, only field soil.

I added my email to my profile, feel free to hmu.

Re: How do plants extract nutrients from the ground?

#26

Post by arbitrage »

thomasfromcdnjs wrote: post #2

I've been doing quite a lot of gardening in the past 3 years. There is a plethora of home gardeners and/or permaculture resources on the internet that generally like as much organic matter as possible. I some of that strategy as it's convenient at home to supply nutrients to plants without much work. But, I can't help but feel it's all sort of wish washy science. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHZHy3_7PPE ^ I found…

what types of plants do you grow? what is your climate like?

gardeners' advice that is along the lines of "what you do is wrong, what i do is right" is generally not very good, and you can feel fine telling them thanks on moving on with your life.

Re: How do plants extract nutrients from the ground?

#27

Post by thorwasdfasdf »

thomasfromcdnjs wrote: post #2

I've been doing quite a lot of gardening in the past 3 years. There is a plethora of home gardeners and/or permaculture resources on the internet that generally like as much organic matter as possible. I some of that strategy as it's convenient at home to supply nutrients to plants without much work. But, I can't help but feel it's all sort of wish washy science. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHZHy3_7PPE ^ I found…

Charles Dowding, the father of no dig gardening, suggests, you don't need to dig in any compost or ogranic matter, just put it on top, as you've suggested. Apparently, the worms and the microorganisms then get to work and bring all that organic matter into the ground themselves working it into a nice tilth.

Re: How do plants extract nutrients from the ground?

#28

Post by hinkley »

goda90 wrote: post #24
thomasfromcdnjs wrote: post #2

I've been doing quite a lot of gardening in the past 3 years. There is a plethora of home gardeners and/or permaculture resources on the internet that generally like as much organic matter as possible. I some of that strategy as it's convenient at home to supply nutrients to plants without much work. But, I can't help but feel it's all sort of wish washy science. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHZHy3_7PPE ^ I found…

>He uses knowledge from the agricultural industry instead of the "organic" approach. I can't help but wonder if his knowledge applies specifically to cases where chemicals like fungicide are used. There are quite a few species of soil fungus that are beneficial to plants, including root protection, but these can be wiped out by fungicides, leaving a blank slate for harmful fungus and other pests to take hold. So it w…

This conversation is simply more evidence that we conflate meadow/prairie plant behavior with woodland plant behavior. Since permaculturists are generally growing bushes and trees common to successional forest biomes, to an extent both can be right. The expected ratios of nitrogen in these two biomes and the ratios of fungi to bacteria differ by at least an order of magnitude, so of course strategies should differ as well.

With the exception of orchardists (whom some of us think doing everything wrong that you possibly can), modern agriculture concerns itself with prairie plants. Where natural woodland fauna can and do mix decaying logs into the soil column, in a prairie it will mostly be decaying roots (and especially decaying root hairs). The kind of rot going on is a bit different.

That said, saprophytic fungi are generally held to leave living tissues alone. There are exceptions of course, but having decaying woody matter in the soil is not a death sentence.

Re: How do plants extract nutrients from the ground?

#29

Post by jedimastert »

This reminds me of my favorite "thought experiment" to poke at intuition: with no other information that what most people learn in elementary/middle school science (or what I would assume is taught, i.e. the water and respiration cycles), where does the majority of a tree's mass come from?

First we might look at dirt, but that doesn't quite pan out; where does the mass come from, and how would it be replenished? We don't see gaps slowly start forming around roots, and dirt doesn't just build up in other places, so that's probably not it.

Next we might look at water, but water is only made of hydrogen and oxygen, and the oxygen is released. The water also brings in nutrients, but there's no way it brings in enough to generate the majority of a trees mass.

So there's only one place left, which is never anyone's first guess and almost never crosses anyone's mind at first glance: air. It's around this point that most people realize that a majority of a tree is carbon, which all comes in from the air as carbon dioxide.

Re: How do plants extract nutrients from the ground?

#30

Post by jspash »

MetallicCloud wrote: post #20
jspash wrote: post #13

I'm curious what HN thinks about the current trend of root washing when planting trees. From what I've read the science is still out and people tend to be split 50/50. The root washers say that by removing all media that the sapling was grown in will give the roots more "incentive" to move into the native soil and thus it will establish quicker. Whereas the anti-washers say you are slowing the establishment by washin…

I'm not a gardener at all, but it shouldn't be hard to figure out, should it? Get like 9 of the same plants at the same point in the life cycle, wash 3, leave 3 and do the 50\50 for 3. Compare results. If it's as big a deal as people make it out to be, it should be obvious, no?

In theory, yes. In practice it would require me buying 9 trees and waiting for 3-5 years to see the results - and i'm getting old ;)

But I do like a good experiment! And my neighbours garden is quite bare. Now you got me thinking...

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