Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks • Hacker News Board

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#21

Post by herval » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 2:53 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #16

ramblerman wrote: post #15

The idea of whale intelligence is super interesting and I hope we do more to understand it. But the unfortunate pseudo-scientific need for the author to push the culture/religion angle becomes almost political at times, and seems like a stretch. We should be able to determine intelligence/communication first without antromorphizing the notion of culture. Some quotes from this article, and another linked by the author…

> Bound by communality, sperm-whale culture expresses a collective individuality: “We” and “us” may be more important than “I” and “me”. If that isn’t a lesson for their Homo sapiens cousins, I don’t know what is. For better or worse, people are individuals, not members of a collective. Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying. People aren't whales or bees in a beehive. That doesn't mean, h…

> Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying

Countries, companies, armies, sports teams, FAMILIES are all collectives of people. Not all of these organizations are voluntary, and not all are “based on self interest”.

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#22

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 2:56 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #19

WalterBright wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bound by communality, sperm-whale culture expresses a collective individuality: “We” and “us” may be more important than “I” and “me”. If that isn’t a lesson for their Homo sapiens cousins, I don’t know what is. For better or worse, people are individuals, not members of a collective. Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying. People aren't whales or bees in a beehive. That doesn't mean, h…

>* For better or worse, people are individuals, not members of a collective. Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying. People aren't whales or bees in a beehive.* It is hard to see how whales are more collective than humans. Humans for most of their existence lived in collective family units, not unlike whales.

Families are indeed very small scale collectives. Even so, try to get the kids to clean their rooms, and you'll conclude that collective has its problems, too.

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#23

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 3:06 AM UTC

herval wrote: post #21

WalterBright wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bound by communality, sperm-whale culture expresses a collective individuality: “We” and “us” may be more important than “I” and “me”. If that isn’t a lesson for their Homo sapiens cousins, I don’t know what is. For better or worse, people are individuals, not members of a collective. Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying. People aren't whales or bees in a beehive. That doesn't mean, h…

> Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying Countries, companies, armies, sports teams, FAMILIES are all collectives of people. Not all of these organizations are voluntary, and not all are “based on self interest”.

Ones not covered in other replies:

> sports teams

Of course they are based on self-interest. Team members all have different statuses and pay. They compete with the other team members to not get cut. They switch teams to gain personal advantage.

> Countries

are forced collectives. The more the country tries to run the lives of its citizens, the worse the country does.

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#24

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 3:16 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #22

s1artibartfast wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>* For better or worse, people are individuals, not members of a collective. Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying. People aren't whales or bees in a beehive.* It is hard to see how whales are more collective than humans. Humans for most of their existence lived in collective family units, not unlike whales.

Families are indeed very small scale collectives. Even so, try to get the kids to clean their rooms, and you'll conclude that collective has its problems, too.

[deleted]

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#25

Post by anigbrowl » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 3:17 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #20

anigbrowl wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collectives of people don't work The existence of armies and corporations suggests otherwise. I think you may be over-stretching the meaning of the term here to suggest some sort of entity that displaces individual cognition.

Corporations are not collectives. They are organizations of people with self-interest, not selfless-interest. Armies consist of people forced to cooperate, usually under threat of death or at least imprisonment. Such cooperation isn't very efficient, and indeed armies tend to be extremely wasteful of lives, treasure and property. (Volunteer armies tend to be less wasteful of lives.)

All organizations involve a certain pooling of individual interest for collective gain, whether that's the profit of the corporations owners and employees (which may overlap) or some altruistic purpose in the case of nonprofit corporations. And these are just two among many examples.

While I thought this Guardian article was rather hyperbolic and tells us more about the author's personal views than about whales, it seems to me that you're taking the same approach from something like an objectivist standpoint.

Perhaps it would be more insightful to look at collectivism vs individualism as a continuum rather than a binary choice.

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#26

Post by bitwize » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 3:26 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #22

s1artibartfast wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>* For better or worse, people are individuals, not members of a collective. Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying. People aren't whales or bees in a beehive.* It is hard to see how whales are more collective than humans. Humans for most of their existence lived in collective family units, not unlike whales.

Families are indeed very small scale collectives. Even so, try to get the kids to clean their rooms, and you'll conclude that collective has its problems, too.

Nuclear families are, but for most of their existence humans have been part of large extended families.

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#27

Post by wombatmobile » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 3:28 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #18

darksaints wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whales can communicate with dolphins as well as other caetacians of various species. Can you communicate with chimpanzees or apes? It is quite possible that, via communication, whale culture actually is millions of years older than ours...kept alive by communicating with species as they evolve.

> Can you communicate with chimpanzees or apes? Sure. This was well documented by a movie in the 1960s. The apes were at first quite surprised that humans could talk.

Also dogs, in English, Spanish, German, French, Italian and Thai.

Have you not ever taken a dog for a walk and been required to change course when the dog indicates its preference to you in a non-negotiable, but culturally acceptable way?

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#28

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 4:25 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #25

WalterBright wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are not collectives. They are organizations of people with self-interest, not selfless-interest. Armies consist of people forced to cooperate, usually under threat of death or at least imprisonment. Such cooperation isn't very efficient, and indeed armies tend to be extremely wasteful of lives, treasure and property. (Volunteer armies tend to be less wasteful of lives.)

All organizations involve a certain pooling of individual interest for collective gain, whether that's the profit of the corporations owners and employees (which may overlap) or some altruistic purpose in the case of nonprofit corporations. And these are just two among many examples. While I thought this Guardian article was rather hyperbolic and tells us more about the author's personal views than about whales, it s…

> Perhaps it would be more insightful to look at collectivism vs individualism as a continuum rather than a binary choice.

I already did in this thread:

"The more the country tries to run the lives of its citizens, the worse the country does."

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#29

Post by coldtea » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 4:28 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #16

ramblerman wrote: post #15

The idea of whale intelligence is super interesting and I hope we do more to understand it. But the unfortunate pseudo-scientific need for the author to push the culture/religion angle becomes almost political at times, and seems like a stretch. We should be able to determine intelligence/communication first without antromorphizing the notion of culture. Some quotes from this article, and another linked by the author…

> Bound by communality, sperm-whale culture expresses a collective individuality: “We” and “us” may be more important than “I” and “me”. If that isn’t a lesson for their Homo sapiens cousins, I don’t know what is. For better or worse, people are individuals, not members of a collective. Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying. People aren't whales or bees in a beehive. That doesn't mean, h…

>For better or worse, people are individuals, not members of a collective.

Huh? There might be a few "individuals" living individually in the history of the world. Isolated from the world, forgotten in some jungle, retreated to some cabin in Alaska, or so.

Some not by choice (e.g. due to some accident with their boat or something), others by choice but only after they've first been raised and prepared by living in communities.

The huge majority has always been members of communities and collective entities.

Without living together with others, collaborating with them, inheriting traditions and knowledge from the past, you don't even have language, culture, science, or anything, not even a cuisine. You're like some animal...

>Collectives of people don't work, and it isn't for a lack of trying

Between famillies, villages, cities, companies, churches, armies, nations, and so on, I can't even think what you had in mind as "not working"...

Re: Whales in 19th century shared information about ship attacks

#30

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 4:30 AM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #26

WalterBright wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Families are indeed very small scale collectives. Even so, try to get the kids to clean their rooms, and you'll conclude that collective has its problems, too.

Nuclear families are, but for most of their existence humans have been part of large extended families.

The larger the extended family, the less like a collective it runs.