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Simulating CRT Monitors with FFmpeg (Pt. 1: Color CRTs)

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Re: Simulating CRT Monitors with FFmpeg (Pt. 1: Color CRTs)

#21

Post by JohnBooty »

Sunspark wrote: post #17
JohnBooty wrote: post #14

I suspect (worry?) that a lot of folks miss out on the other thrill of physical CRTs... an experience that is as close to zero latency as is physically possible. This article breaks it down in wonderful detail: http://renderingpipeline.com/2013/09/measuring-input-latency... The TL;DR is that on a "modern" stack (USB, display buffering, etc) with a 60hz display you're looking at over 100ms of input latency. You can ro…

Yes, the same thing with telephone calls over copper. No latency. You could both talk at the same time, more immersive. I also remember vector displays first-hand.. those were pretty awesome. You're never going to get a vector graphics experience ever on an LCD because LCDs are rasterized pixels not a drawn line. No one will ever make a limited run of CRTs or vector monitors ever again, but I wish they would. People…

That's a great example. Nobody will ever really experience that again!

   No one will ever make a limited run of 
   CRTs or vector monitors ever again, but 
   I wish they would. People would buy them.
The prices people are paying for high-quality CRTs today are proof of that. I was lucky enough to get a sweet Sony PVM before the prices really went through the roof.

But yeah, they'll never be manufactured again. It would be such an absolutely massive undertaking.

   I also remember vector displays first-hand.. those 
   were pretty awesome. You're never going to get a 
   vector graphics experience ever on an LCD because 
   LCDs are rasterized pixels not a drawn line.
Yeah and there's also the temporal aspect -- the "smearing" of ultrabright vector dots, like your bullets in Asteroids.

I've seen folks be totally blown away when seeing something like an Asteroids cabinet in person for the first time.

Re: Simulating CRT Monitors with FFmpeg (Pt. 1: Color CRTs)

#22

Post by JohnBooty »

rubatuga wrote: post #20
JohnBooty wrote: post #14

I suspect (worry?) that a lot of folks miss out on the other thrill of physical CRTs... an experience that is as close to zero latency as is physically possible. This article breaks it down in wonderful detail: http://renderingpipeline.com/2013/09/measuring-input-latency... The TL;DR is that on a "modern" stack (USB, display buffering, etc) with a 60hz display you're looking at over 100ms of input latency. You can ro…

You can get 37.5ms latency on a MacBook Air running at 60Hz: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15488191 I think if you use a 120Hz monitor on a Linux text console, it would be sub 20ms.

That's awesome!

I love that one reply:

    "This is incredible. Single user mode 
    feels like the screen updates BEFORE 
    pressed the keys, like it is time 
    travelling. I guess I've used to the 
    high latency on newer computers."
Do you know of any games/emulators that run in such an environment? (Maybe stuff like RetroPie does by default, I have no idea!)

Re: Simulating CRT Monitors with FFmpeg (Pt. 1: Color CRTs)

#25

Post by kitsunesoba »

JohnBooty wrote: post #14

I suspect (worry?) that a lot of folks miss out on the other thrill of physical CRTs... an experience that is as close to zero latency as is physically possible. This article breaks it down in wonderful detail: http://renderingpipeline.com/2013/09/measuring-input-latency... The TL;DR is that on a "modern" stack (USB, display buffering, etc) with a 60hz display you're looking at over 100ms of input latency. You can ro…

This is part of why I’d be happy to see more hardware reproductions of classic computers and consoles. Emulators are pretty good but they bring a certain amount of unavoidable overhead that can never be entirely eliminated.

Re: Simulating CRT Monitors with FFmpeg (Pt. 1: Color CRTs)

#26

Post by JohnBooty »

rubatuga wrote: post #19
JohnBooty wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you care about this stuff... (and there is absolutely no reason to care, but you are making a comment, so you seem to care a little) ...the tradeoffs are really fascinating. Don't think of it as one being better. It's just a different set of tradeoffs. CRTs are objectively better at some things, and are of course also objectively worse in a lot of obvious ways. I would say that LPs and tube amps are objectively wo…

Tube amps are amazing for distortion effects, no doubt. But for a 1-to-1 reproduction of audio signals, it's not great.

For sure. The even-order harmonic distortion can sound "good" though. It's not my cup of tea but I wouldn't say somebody's crazy if they prefer it!

LPs are a slightly more interesting discussion IMO. Objectively inferior to Redbook audio by a mile. But, given the 30-40dB noise floor even in a "quiet" room, and the THD added by the loudspeakers, I think their real-world performance competes very very well with digital audio...

Re: Simulating CRT Monitors with FFmpeg (Pt. 1: Color CRTs)

#27

Post by a-dub »

JohnBooty wrote: post #14

I suspect (worry?) that a lot of folks miss out on the other thrill of physical CRTs... an experience that is as close to zero latency as is physically possible. This article breaks it down in wonderful detail: http://renderingpipeline.com/2013/09/measuring-input-latency... The TL;DR is that on a "modern" stack (USB, display buffering, etc) with a 60hz display you're looking at over 100ms of input latency. You can ro…

psychophysicists love them for exactly this reason. it's easier to put an accurate physical timestamp on the display of a stimulus with analog crts without resorting to measuring an onscreen fiducial marker.

Re: Simulating CRT Monitors with FFmpeg (Pt. 1: Color CRTs)

#28

Post by mark-r »

Sunspark wrote: post #17
JohnBooty wrote: post #14

I suspect (worry?) that a lot of folks miss out on the other thrill of physical CRTs... an experience that is as close to zero latency as is physically possible. This article breaks it down in wonderful detail: http://renderingpipeline.com/2013/09/measuring-input-latency... The TL;DR is that on a "modern" stack (USB, display buffering, etc) with a 60hz display you're looking at over 100ms of input latency. You can ro…

Yes, the same thing with telephone calls over copper. No latency. You could both talk at the same time, more immersive. I also remember vector displays first-hand.. those were pretty awesome. You're never going to get a vector graphics experience ever on an LCD because LCDs are rasterized pixels not a drawn line. No one will ever make a limited run of CRTs or vector monitors ever again, but I wish they would. People…

I have an old Vectrex video game that I got as they were closing them out. Amazing machines because they had the monitor built in, you didn't have to connect them to a TV. Because the monitor was built in they could drive it any way they wanted, so it was vector all the way - no rasters.

Re: Simulating CRT Monitors with FFmpeg (Pt. 1: Color CRTs)

#29

Post by badsectoracula »

Sunspark wrote: post #17
JohnBooty wrote: post #14

I suspect (worry?) that a lot of folks miss out on the other thrill of physical CRTs... an experience that is as close to zero latency as is physically possible. This article breaks it down in wonderful detail: http://renderingpipeline.com/2013/09/measuring-input-latency... The TL;DR is that on a "modern" stack (USB, display buffering, etc) with a 60hz display you're looking at over 100ms of input latency. You can ro…

Yes, the same thing with telephone calls over copper. No latency. You could both talk at the same time, more immersive. I also remember vector displays first-hand.. those were pretty awesome. You're never going to get a vector graphics experience ever on an LCD because LCDs are rasterized pixels not a drawn line. No one will ever make a limited run of CRTs or vector monitors ever again, but I wish they would. People…

I can't find the link now but there is a company making still brand new CRTs and the owner has considered making some for gamers, however i doubt this will be a thing since - at least for now - CRTs are easy to find for very cheap and a limited run would be very expensive. Exception being the high end trinitrons and similar, but i doubt said company is making CRTs of that caliber (i think they're making TV-like stuff) anyway.

Perhaps in 20 years if they're still around things will be different though. After all CRTs do wear out from use.

Re: Simulating CRT Monitors with FFmpeg (Pt. 1: Color CRTs)

#30

Post by Bancakes »

IronWolve wrote: post #7

Digital Foundry did some good videos on CRT and Gaming, how lower resolutions looked so well, and could crank up the ray tracing at lower resolution. We really traded high pixel count for the CRT's blending of pixels with higher refresh. >DF Direct: CRT Displays - Was LCD A Big Mistake For Gaming? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvRyVZWuvQ4 >DF Direct! Modern Games Look Amazing On CRT Monitors... Yes, Better than LCD…

Ah yes I remember the 1440p 144hz CRT's. Wait, no I don't.

I think the best feature CRTs could provide was the purely analogue display chain in older models. Super fast "response time" and clarity.

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