Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates • Hacker News Board

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#21

Post by plif » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

tantalor wrote: post #6

This isn't a "bug". The problem is the software was not designed to do this and needs to be updated to support a change in requirements Bugs are when software does something it isn't supposed to, or doesn't do something it is supposed to. In this case, it's doing exactly what it was intended to do when it was implemented and put into service. Since then things have changed, so the vendor needs to implement the featur…

Seems high, but this is par for the course for this type of work. You would usually estimate this in terms of months for a team. Let's say a team of 4 for simplicity -- that brings it to ~3 months.

I'd also be careful with the term "programming hours". I'm not sure how the news article got that or who said that initially, but it seems like a misrepresentation of the type of work needed. That estimate almost certainly includes everything involved in getting the code to production. You can imagine that means a lot of QA, red tape and holding the code's hand through environments.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#22

Post by crummybowley » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

tantalor wrote: post #6

This isn't a "bug". The problem is the software was not designed to do this and needs to be updated to support a change in requirements Bugs are when software does something it isn't supposed to, or doesn't do something it is supposed to. In this case, it's doing exactly what it was intended to do when it was implemented and put into service. Since then things have changed, so the vendor needs to implement the featur…

But even if it was a bug... I don't understand why software would prevent somebody opening the gate and letting the inmate out...

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#23

Post by MattGaiser » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

crummybowley wrote: post #22

tantalor wrote: post #6

This isn't a "bug". The problem is the software was not designed to do this and needs to be updated to support a change in requirements Bugs are when software does something it isn't supposed to, or doesn't do something it is supposed to. In this case, it's doing exactly what it was intended to do when it was implemented and put into service. Since then things have changed, so the vendor needs to implement the featur…

But even if it was a bug... I don't understand why software would prevent somebody opening the gate and letting the inmate out...

They might only know that it is not calculating some sentences correctly. That does mean they have figured out little more beyond "we know it is wrong."

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#24

Post by JoeAltmaier » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

crummybowley wrote: post #22

tantalor wrote: post #6

This isn't a "bug". The problem is the software was not designed to do this and needs to be updated to support a change in requirements Bugs are when software does something it isn't supposed to, or doesn't do something it is supposed to. In this case, it's doing exactly what it was intended to do when it was implemented and put into service. Since then things have changed, so the vendor needs to implement the featur…

But even if it was a bug... I don't understand why software would prevent somebody opening the gate and letting the inmate out...

1.5 million prisoners in the USA. You want to go through that list, without software?

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#25

Post by woodruffw » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

To color this even further: the hundreds of people who are illegally imprisoned are being held for drug or even just paraphernalia possession. The law that grants them credits explicitly excludes violent felons[1].

[1]: https://corrections.az.gov/sites/default/files/documents/PDF...

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#26

Post by NullPrefix » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

atty wrote: post #10

The fact that they appear to have identified individuals who should be released, but have not, due to the software not being updated, is frankly disgusting. I believe holding a person against their will is a criminal act - seems like most of the employees of the Arizona correctional facilities are now guilty of crimes worse than the majority of their inmates.

Computer says no.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#27

Post by incanus77 » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

crummybowley wrote: post #22

tantalor wrote: post #6

This isn't a "bug". The problem is the software was not designed to do this and needs to be updated to support a change in requirements Bugs are when software does something it isn't supposed to, or doesn't do something it is supposed to. In this case, it's doing exactly what it was intended to do when it was implemented and put into service. Since then things have changed, so the vendor needs to implement the featur…

But even if it was a bug... I don't understand why software would prevent somebody opening the gate and letting the inmate out...

Not picking on this comment in particular and not a domain expert, but just a few ideas:

- System needs to track sexual offenders and provide updates on their locations to relevant municipalities

- Parole officer check, requirements, and termination system needs to know who, what, and where

- Statistical record-keeping systems for sentence lengths need to be updated

- If felons, voting systems need to be kept updated

All of these sorts of actions would be triggered by someone’s release and probably involve interconnected systems that rely on truth data about the initial release.

One major thing my career in software and systems has taught me is that things are rarely as simple as they seem on the surface. I tend to approach such systems with humility.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#28

Post by Ma8ee » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

undecisive wrote: post #19

djrogers wrote: post #5

I'd hesitate to call this a software bug, this is a complete breakdown of planning. FTA - "“Currently this calculation is not in ACIS at all,” the report states. “ACIS can calculate 1 earned credit for every 6 days served, but this is a new calculation.”" tldr; a new law was passed that allowed for a different credit schedule for days served, and the system hasn't been updated to make that calculation.

It's the problem with silver bullets like YAGNI: Laws change, if your system is dependent on laws, then you can be sure that new rules will need to be added. You need a system that is configurable, you can be sure you are going to need it. Of course, if there's money to be made in having a change-resistant system, well that's a different story. YAGNIAYWPTTNFI (You ARE gonna need it, and you will pay through the nose…

YAGNI just means that you don’t know how the laws are going to change. All the configurability you add is just going to make the system more expensive and even harder to change the day when the laws are changed, and it wasn’t anything you thought of. And no one is ever using all your nice switches.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#29

Post by hkh28 » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

atty wrote: post #10

The fact that they appear to have identified individuals who should be released, but have not, due to the software not being updated, is frankly disgusting. I believe holding a person against their will is a criminal act - seems like most of the employees of the Arizona correctional facilities are now guilty of crimes worse than the majority of their inmates.

As an outside observer (European) this seems to be the way the American prison system is run. The inmates are not viewed as humans by the people responsible, enabling horrible conditions.

Fixing such an issue should be top priority, and in the meantime, you would revert to pen and paper accounting to ensure the correct release of each prisoner.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#30

Post by giantg2 » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

crummybowley wrote: post #22

tantalor wrote: post #6

This isn't a "bug". The problem is the software was not designed to do this and needs to be updated to support a change in requirements Bugs are when software does something it isn't supposed to, or doesn't do something it is supposed to. In this case, it's doing exactly what it was intended to do when it was implemented and put into service. Since then things have changed, so the vendor needs to implement the featur…

But even if it was a bug... I don't understand why software would prevent somebody opening the gate and letting the inmate out...

Without the software, how will they know it's time to release?

Also, if you release someone and the system still shows them as being in there, that could lead to a very bad interaction for that person if they have any official interaction with authorities while they are out.