Computer Networks: A Systems Approach • Hacker News Board

Re: Computer Networks: A Systems Approach

#21

Post by MikeBVaughn » Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 7:54 PM UTC

beaconstudios wrote: post #16

I'm confused. What makes this a "systems approach"? I've scanned through the index and a few chapters but it doesn't appear to be applying a systems/cybernetic approach to network engineering, unless I've missed something. Is it because it covers the whole stack in a systematic way? Not bagging on the book, by the way - just trying to establish whether it's worth reading through, as I'm already somewhat familiar with…

We used the book in my undergrad networking course, and I liked it quite a bit. It's "systems" in the catchall "lower-ish-level computing" sense of "systems-level programming," rather than the "systems theory" sense.

The pedagogical structure of the book makes it a solid follow-up to a standard undergrad OS class, IIRC. It's been ten years since I've read it, though, so YMMV.

Re: Computer Networks: A Systems Approach

#22

Post by trepetti » Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 7:57 PM UTC

halfeatenpie wrote: post #20

beaconstudios wrote: post #16

I'm confused. What makes this a "systems approach"? I've scanned through the index and a few chapters but it doesn't appear to be applying a systems/cybernetic approach to network engineering, unless I've missed something. Is it because it covers the whole stack in a systematic way? Not bagging on the book, by the way - just trying to establish whether it's worth reading through, as I'm already somewhat familiar with…

I agree with this comment. I don't understand what specifically makes this a "system approach".

Maybe as opposed to a theoretical treatment? In academia, there is a dichotomy in CS research between systems and theory, which may have been what they were getting at.

Re: Computer Networks: A Systems Approach

#23

Post by stjohnswarts » Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 10:55 PM UTC

halfeatenpie wrote: post #20

beaconstudios wrote: post #16

I'm confused. What makes this a "systems approach"? I've scanned through the index and a few chapters but it doesn't appear to be applying a systems/cybernetic approach to network engineering, unless I've missed something. Is it because it covers the whole stack in a systematic way? Not bagging on the book, by the way - just trying to establish whether it's worth reading through, as I'm already somewhat familiar with…

I agree with this comment. I don't understand what specifically makes this a "system approach".

It takes a bottom up approach rather than top-down, and gives you all the gory details as opposed to bird's eye view of things. I would take it as that. System is an almost useless word other than implying a "lower level" view.

Re: Computer Networks: A Systems Approach

#24

Post by beaconstudios » Sat, Feb 13, 2021, 12:21 AM UTC

stjohnswarts wrote: post #23

halfeatenpie wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this comment. I don't understand what specifically makes this a "system approach".

It takes a bottom up approach rather than top-down, and gives you all the gory details as opposed to bird's eye view of things. I would take it as that. System is an almost useless word other than implying a "lower level" view.

"system" actually has a ton of meaning, it's just been co-opted to mean "hardware" in software circles. It means a collective object that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Re: Computer Networks: A Systems Approach

#25

Post by drbruced » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 11:05 PM UTC

I wanted to thank the folks here for pointing out a few issues that we (the authors of the books) hadn't noticed, particular around the meaning of "A Systems Approach". Our definition of the Systems Approach is now on https://www.systemsapproach.org/ -

The "Systems Approach" refers to the field of design and implementation of computer systems. The term is used commonly by computer science researchers and practitioners who study the issues that arise when building complex computing systems such as operating systems, networks, distributed applications, etc. The key to the systems approach is a "big picture" view – you need to look at how the components of a system interact with each other to achieve an overall result, rather than simply optimizing each component. In the networking context, that often means going beyond the traditional layered view to see how an issue is best tackled in a way that might touch several layers. The Systems Approach has a strong focus on real-world implementation, with the Internet being the obvious example of a widely-deployed, complex networking system.

Re: Computer Networks: A Systems Approach

#26

Post by drbruced » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 11:08 PM UTC

Daho0n wrote: post #9

Amazing books, but I'm not sure it is a good idea with such huge pictures (3462 × 2176px thumbnails), even though it of course is simpler than adding multiple sizes etc. RIP mobile users. https://sdn.systemsapproach.org/_images/Slide20.png

Thanks for pointing this out, it is an issue we need to fix. It's because we produce so many formats (including print) that it's hard to get this exactly right, but I believe we can find a better compromise.