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The computers rejecting job applications

bbc.co.uk

21–30 of 261 posts

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#21

While there is a natural "that's not fair!" reaction to this, and also I think that a lot of these companies are selling snake oil, I also have to wonder if it can be much worse than the human screening most applicants go through for these kinds of jobs.

A lot of this is probably mostly BS-y stuff like personality tests and so forth. But if there's a stack of 100 resumes applying for some job, there's going to be a lot of arbitrariness in any heuristics used to cull pile down to a reasonable size even once "obviously" unqualified candidates are filtered out (and even that filtering can be a bit arbitrary).

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#22

I used to work as a programmer in this field. I'm torn, on one side the "science" behind it is based on statistics and is supposed to be validated. Your view depends largely on whether you trust the validity of psychometrics. On the other side, someone makes a test wraps some statistics around it and says it's valid and measures what it's supposed can seem a little far fetched.

How can you "validate" it? Are companies making all their staff take these tests and then measuring performance? But the people in your company isn't RCT. Are companies basing this on research that is done on random people? Okay, but skills required on most jobs aren't correlated to some "general" intelligence. How do you deal with the fact that IQ appears to be correlated to income? How you deal with the fact that IQ doesn't correlate to success? Seriously, I don't understand how this makes sense to anyone who has studied stats at all (this is taught to 16 year olds where I am).

This stuff is totally out of this world crazy. I am reasonably intelligent, I did an IQ test when I was 12 and it was 130...I am extremely bad at relatively basic elements of life and work. I am good at other things but there is no way this can all be measured or, even, quantified. What is more: the main thing determining my ability is still experience, and my skills change significantly over the course of a few years. This isn't how statistics or science is really supposed to work. Slightly obviously, and contrary to what people think, this entrenches inequality.

I understand why companies do this:

* Hiring is hard. It is hard to get people who are actually good at hiring, there are no courses for this at university, there are no real rules outside of experience. Ironically, companies get over this by doubling down on their weaknesses.

* Underemployment is massive. It used to be hard to apply for a job, everyone just shotguns apps out now, and no-one has a job they want. Employers can do whatever: I am in the UK, even for menial tasks like working in the supermarket, they are doing weird, totally unscientific tests.

* Everyone is terrified of hiring. Employment lawyers get richer, laws get more complex, and the risk of being villified in the press for an interview gone bad are massive. Ironically, these totally "objective" processes just solidify inequality. They are designed with context, there is no totally abstract notion of intelligence that is relevant to the work place, they are designed to produce stratification in intelligence that likely does not translate to any real-world scenario. These approaches cause the thing they are trying to prevent because the thing has become so terrifying for companies.

Just my 2c, but this stuff is, imo, one of the worst modern corporate behaviour. Whether you think it is right or wrong morally, the outcomes are not good...the solution to bad hiring processes isn't psuedoscience. It is: hiring people who can do their job (again, these are linked, I have noticed that some companies are in the death sprial...they have bad processes that hire bad people, when a company does it well they just exist totally outwith this cycle).

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#23
post #10

This makes me think of the (most likely apocryphal) story of the hiring manager faced with a huge stack of resumes. He divides the stack in half, and tosses the top half in the trash. "We don't want to hire those people. They're terribly unlucky."

I've read once of a company who fired everyone who had below average performance score.

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#24
The value provided by this "AI" solution is that it diffuses accountability for a decision away from any individual making a hiring decision. Would it be ethical if it were used to operate a food rationing system, or maybe a vaccine rationing system, and at what point does the level of plenty make it acceptable? I could convolve or convolute any scheme to make the attribute I was selecting for seem "random" and then refuse to acknowledge the views of anyone who couldn't explain gradient descent as well. There may be a general principle here where if you are mediated by machines, you cease to be a person and just represent a sample in a set of samples, and hiring processes like this indicate an economically inferior-good kind of employer that people select away from as soon as they can afford to.

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they don't discriminate on these things. In the U.S. they explicitly do discriminate on these things (and are often required to do so by law), but only in one direction.

AFAIK, photos and birthday are not allowed in US to prevent such discrimination so how would they do it then?

I am surprised that Germany hasn't been taken to the European court of human rights over this abuse.

Maybe those German privacy activists going after google et all might want to look at this.

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#26

I wonder if it's possible to get the job applicants to evaluate each other? That way you have a process that automatically scales to the number of applicants you have. Exactly how to structure it so it can't be gamed/subverted is tricky, but you might imagine some team activity where the team does a task together, and then each person in the team is asked to so some kind of review of the other people in the team. If…

> Exactly how to structure it so it can't be gamed/subverted is tricky

Most companies pay a commission to the recruiter or a referral bonus. You could distribute that to those candidates who contribute to the recommendation of the winning candidate. You're incentivized to recommend the best person, because you can still make money even if you don't get the job.

Also you could always hire for a batch of positions, or at least more than one person at a time. That way, just because someone else gets the job doesn't preclude you from also getting it.

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#28
post #10

This makes me think of the (most likely apocryphal) story of the hiring manager faced with a huge stack of resumes. He divides the stack in half, and tosses the top half in the trash. "We don't want to hire those people. They're terribly unlucky."

I've read once of a company who fired everyone who had below average performance score.

"We're the best, because we fire the worst!"

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#29
post #10

This makes me think of the (most likely apocryphal) story of the hiring manager faced with a huge stack of resumes. He divides the stack in half, and tosses the top half in the trash. "We don't want to hire those people. They're terribly unlucky."

Frankly, the logistics of hiring make this a reality. I remember helping my boss hire interns, and picked a few out. Later on, they found out that they weren’t able to go to all of the schools that they wanted, they could only choose 2. Where did all the people from other schools go? Straight in the trash. Same deal with hiring full-time employees in my experience. Random, usually understandable circumstances preclude a huge swath of applicants from even being evaluated. And for many places, it doesn’t even matter, because they have so many candidates that they can’t distinguish between them at that level. But from a personal POV, it can be disheartening to get rejected from job after job if you don’t know that like 75% of the time it has nothing to do with you.

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#30
post #20

In Europe Automatic performance reviews are probbly not legal in EU according to GDPR section 22. "The data subject shall have the right not to be subject to a decision based solely on automated processing" https://gdpr-info.eu/art-22-gdpr/

>"solely"

Which presumably means that they can be used as a filter so long as a human is making the final selection.

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