A gorilla who was brought up as a boy in an English village • Hacker News Board

Re: A gorilla who was brought up as a boy in an English village

#21

Post by ivanbakel » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 12:37 PM UTC

chmod775 wrote: post #18

ptsneves wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cordially disagree. I counter argue that anthropomorphizing of animals is fundamentally flawed. What understanding are you talking about? That with understanding the wild animal will not kill and maim randomly? As per other comments it seems evidence is against this reasoning. Highly experienced trainers who understand very well their animals end up dead. I think it is quite a high grounded statement to call profes…

>Highly experienced trainers who understand very well their animals end up dead. Humans who understand other humans also get killed by humans - at rates other animals will never match. In the ballpark of ~20,000 murders are committed every year in the US, yet even though there are 90 million dogs in that same country, only about 30 to 50 people are killed by dogs. It would be pointless comparing the number of fatal b…

What is the point being made here? Humans are liable for themselves and their actions - animals are not. It ultimately doesn't matter if an animal has a justification for its actions; being unable to take responsibility for them, from a human perspective, is the biggest separator between human and animal behaviour.

Re: A gorilla who was brought up as a boy in an English village

#22

Post by chmod775 » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 12:44 PM UTC

ivanbakel wrote: post #21

chmod775 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Highly experienced trainers who understand very well their animals end up dead. Humans who understand other humans also get killed by humans - at rates other animals will never match. In the ballpark of ~20,000 murders are committed every year in the US, yet even though there are 90 million dogs in that same country, only about 30 to 50 people are killed by dogs. It would be pointless comparing the number of fatal b…

What is the point being made here? Humans are liable for themselves and their actions - animals are not. It ultimately doesn't matter if an animal has a justification for its actions; being unable to take responsibility for them, from a human perspective, is the biggest separator between human and animal behaviour.

> being unable to take responsibility for them, from a human perspective, is the biggest separator between human and animal behaviour.

That is true, but also not related to what your GP was talking about IMHO.

I understood their comment as coming from a perspective of either "you should fear what you can't understand/explain - and you can't really understand animals" or "it's their nature to be violent, it doesn't matter whether you understand them", either of which I think is flawed.

You made a much better point.

I just have a habit of picking at reasoning even if I agree with the conclusion. Sometimes you end up with a more concise and to the point argument at the end of that, and in this case it came from you!

Re: A gorilla who was brought up as a boy in an English village

#23

Post by bondarchuk » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 12:48 PM UTC

zrail wrote: post #10

ofrzeta wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that the vast majority of them are pit bulls. That might suggest that neither domesticated dogs nor wild animals are as likely to attack as are animals specifically bred to attack.

> Below are lists of fatal dog attacks in the United States reported by the news media, published in scholarly papers, or mentioned through other sources. In the lists below, the breed is assigned by the sources. It's because you're looking at a biased slice of data. There's no national database of fatal dog attacks and people are scared of pit bulls so the media reports on them more.

And also because pitbulls were created to fight other dogs, and descend from bulldogs, which were created to fight to the death against bulls.

Re: A gorilla who was brought up as a boy in an English village

#24

Post by jmkni » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 12:58 PM UTC

chmod775 wrote: post #5

ignoramous wrote: post #3

Good call sending the Gorilla away (though it didn't end well for the Gorilla), because there is no controlling a 200-pound angry wild animal when its upset: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_(chimpanzee) And Bears, too: > Even though it may appear that the bear attacked for no reason, there was a reason. "You can train them and use as many safety precautions as you can, but you're still taking a chance. It's stil…

I agree. Though you could make a similar argument for domesticated animals like dogs. Especially larger dogs. Or humans! There are a lot of things that can be dangerous to humans, especially children, when they fly off the handle. There is always a risk. Most animals function emotionally like humans, but have no good way of communicating emotions like frustration and anger except through aggression. But locking up an…

I got a dog recently, and read lots of things online about 'crate training', and had lots of people advising me it was the way to go, so I got a 'crate' and tried it.

What a load of shit lol, it's a cage. They should call the process 'cage conditioning', the dog was fully aware he was locked in a cage and didn't like it.

Abandoned it very quickly, had a lot more success with just patience and positive reinforcement.

Re: A gorilla who was brought up as a boy in an English village

#25

Post by ramblerman » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 1:03 PM UTC

wolfhumble wrote: post #20

bregma wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming the violence on the race of dog tells us more about the reporter than the news story.

Without knowing anything about the owner and the dog, I would rather meet an unleashed Golden Retriever than unleashed Pitbull. Am I wrong thinking like that?

Of course not, and this age-old argument in defence of pit-bulls comes up again and again, with the same point being missed.

Pitbulls could be the sweetest breed in the world, the point is that "when" they attack, it ends up much much worse than your super aggressive chihuaha. And in some cases 1 to 1 a man can not win the fight.

There a few breeds like that (e.g. mastiffs) but pitbulls are one of the most popularly owned dogs in this category.

Re: A gorilla who was brought up as a boy in an English village

#26

Post by secondcoming » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 1:07 PM UTC

user-the-name wrote: post #15

secondcoming wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wince when I read about pit bull owners proclaiming how their dog is harmless and 'one of the family'. They've clearly not watched the videos I have. And I don't accept that when a pit bull it's the 'fault of the owner'. There's something inherent in them that causes their brain to switch into attack mode for any reason. And once they do attack it's very difficult to get them to stop.

So you watched some videos, and now you know much better how the animal behaves than those who have lived with it for its entire life?

I know an unnecessary risk when I see one. Those breeds are banned in some countries for good reason.

Re: A gorilla who was brought up as a boy in an English village

#27

Post by dmos62 » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 1:10 PM UTC

wolfhumble wrote: post #20

bregma wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming the violence on the race of dog tells us more about the reporter than the news story.

Without knowing anything about the owner and the dog, I would rather meet an unleashed Golden Retriever than unleashed Pitbull. Am I wrong thinking like that?

At first I was completely agreeing with you and found parent's sentiment misguided. But, then I thought what if we took this to an extreme and generalized about humans? Human violence isn't always uniformly distributed amongst the races, but we try not to jump to conclusions about supposed racial genetic predispositions. I think the dog deserves the benefit of the doubt is what I'm saying. But that's also not accounting that some dogs have been bred for violence. So I guess you are right in some ways and wrong in others.

Re: A gorilla who was brought up as a boy in an English village

#28

Post by etempleton » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 1:10 PM UTC

zrail wrote: post #10

ofrzeta wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that the vast majority of them are pit bulls. That might suggest that neither domesticated dogs nor wild animals are as likely to attack as are animals specifically bred to attack.

> Below are lists of fatal dog attacks in the United States reported by the news media, published in scholarly papers, or mentioned through other sources. In the lists below, the breed is assigned by the sources. It's because you're looking at a biased slice of data. There's no national database of fatal dog attacks and people are scared of pit bulls so the media reports on them more.

It is also because Pit Bull is not a breed and so anytime a dog bites and a dog has an unclear breed, but looks vaguely like a terrier it is easier to write down that the attack was by a Pit Bull.

It is also likely that owners who desire a dog that was bred for fighting want their dog to be aggressive and so train them to be.

Re: A gorilla who was brought up as a boy in an English village

#29

Post by user-the-name » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 1:11 PM UTC

secondcoming wrote: post #26

user-the-name wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you watched some videos, and now you know much better how the animal behaves than those who have lived with it for its entire life?

I know an unnecessary risk when I see one. Those breeds are banned in some countries for good reason.

Do you though? People with a lot more information than you have disagree strongly with you.

Re: A gorilla who was brought up as a boy in an English village

#30

Post by rob74 » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

ryukafalz wrote: post #14

This kind of thing is fascinating to me. I don't think we really know the extent to which primate behavior in relation to ours is cultural vs. genetic; after all, things like this haven't often been tried! Obviously the genetic differences are huge, but stories like this make me think that our cultural development over time may be a bigger factor in the difference between our species than many assume. And humans don'…

Yup... I mean, you wouldn't keep a wolf around your house either, but dogs (if well-trained and with responsible owners) are usually no problem. So who knows, if humans would breed and train chimps (gorillas are too big) the same way as dogs, in time they probably could be "integrated" into society. Of course, that would bring with it a whole new set of moral issues...