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Otokichi

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Re: Otokichi

#21

Post by tpmx »

opportune wrote: post #12
yudlejoza wrote: post #5

It just occurred to me, boats have been around way before 1492, and they would drift away by accident, just like in this case, more often than not. Hence, folks from East Asia drifted away and landed on west coast of North America all the time, from time immemorial to 1492, and all of them were designated native/indigenous. Conclusion: Asia to America migration didn't only happen through Bering/Beringia land bridge p…

I think this is almost trivially true due to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yupik_peoples

That crossing was from North Asia (Siberia), not East Asia though? Crossing the Bering strait (88 km) seems a lot less demanding than crossing the pacific from East Asia to North America (~7000 km or so).

Re: Otokichi

#22

Post by deaddodo »

JamesLeonis wrote: post #17
yudlejoza wrote: post #5

It just occurred to me, boats have been around way before 1492, and they would drift away by accident, just like in this case, more often than not. Hence, folks from East Asia drifted away and landed on west coast of North America all the time, from time immemorial to 1492, and all of them were designated native/indigenous. Conclusion: Asia to America migration didn't only happen through Bering/Beringia land bridge p…

For a direct answer to your question, the Polynesians populated much of the vast Pacific ocean and founded many island native lineages. There is some strong evidence they came into contact with West Coast American natives within the last couple thousand years [0]. > We find conclusive evidence for prehistoric contact of Polynesian individuals with Native American individuals (around AD 1200) contemporaneous with the…

It's probably a good idea to point out that the evidence for Polynesian/S. American contact is extremely scant and mostly conjectural. This is a very controversial topic among archeologists and historians and there are biased interpretations on both sides.

Re: Otokichi

#23

Post by miohtama »

themodelplumber wrote: post #14

Fascinating. Something that made me curious: > There the ship was fired on repeatedly, and King was not able to accomplish his objective to establish diplomatic contact So...why not place a brief message into a few bottles and drop them in the waters around the populated zones? "We have here your citizens named so-and-so, and will return around this date, and then this date + about 12M, to try again. Please don't sho…

Leaving Japan was punishable by death

Re: Otokichi

#24

Post by kipchak »

themodelplumber wrote: post #14

Fascinating. Something that made me curious: > There the ship was fired on repeatedly, and King was not able to accomplish his objective to establish diplomatic contact So...why not place a brief message into a few bottles and drop them in the waters around the populated zones? "We have here your citizens named so-and-so, and will return around this date, and then this date + about 12M, to try again. Please don't sho…

My understanding is that during the period (1600 to 1868) leaving the country, even by accident was punishable by death. better treatment of shipwrecked American sailors was part of the demands of Perry's expedition in the Convention of Kanagawa.

>For the Japanese the punishment for leaving the country (and coming back) was death. The Japanese view at the time was that their world was complete and their was no place in it for crude, materialistic and barbaric Westerners. It was one of the few times in modern history that a nation rejected "progress." Punishments were equally harsh for foreigner that arrived in Japan. Thirteen members of a group of Portuguese merchants that arrived in 1640 were executed. The rest returned home with the message: "Think of us no more."[1]

[1]http://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat16/sub107/item504.html

[2]https://unseenjapan.com/edo-era-castaways-in-russia/

Re: Otokichi

#25

Post by themodelplumber »

miohtama wrote: post #23
themodelplumber wrote: post #14

Fascinating. Something that made me curious: > There the ship was fired on repeatedly, and King was not able to accomplish his objective to establish diplomatic contact So...why not place a brief message into a few bottles and drop them in the waters around the populated zones? "We have here your citizens named so-and-so, and will return around this date, and then this date + about 12M, to try again. Please don't sho…

Leaving Japan was punishable by death

Was this really the case for castaways caught in storms, who expected to come back?

Re: Otokichi

#27

Post by themodelplumber »

kipchak wrote: post #24
themodelplumber wrote: post #14

Fascinating. Something that made me curious: > There the ship was fired on repeatedly, and King was not able to accomplish his objective to establish diplomatic contact So...why not place a brief message into a few bottles and drop them in the waters around the populated zones? "We have here your citizens named so-and-so, and will return around this date, and then this date + about 12M, to try again. Please don't sho…

My understanding is that during the period (1600 to 1868) leaving the country, even by accident was punishable by death. better treatment of shipwrecked American sailors was part of the demands of Perry's expedition in the Convention of Kanagawa. >For the Japanese the punishment for leaving the country (and coming back) was death. The Japanese view at the time was that their world was complete and their was no place…

That's curious. So did the survivors not know about the perishable by death factor? Otherwise I'd expect that they'd also fight the return in any way possible...

Re: Otokichi

#28

Post by blacksmith_tb »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #16
tpmx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ship building technology development is an important factor you didn't factor in. You'd need a ship that can survive crossing the pacific and also enough rations of food to survive the trip. In this case they also used some desalination tech to survive those 14 months, per the article. Edit: More details: https://www.historylink.org/File/9065 > The crew had an adequate food supply (rice from the cargo, supplemented w…

From the essay you linked: "Traces of Japan were not entirely unknown in the Northwest. More than 1,000 Japanese ships are estimated to have disappeared during the Exclusion Era (1633-1854). Most presumably sank in storms, but iron fittings and other remnants of some of those ships washed up on the Northwest coast over time. A few drifted to coastal areas farther south with survivors on board. According to historian…

And the iron was being reused to make tools, on a fairly large scale apparently[1]

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_Am...

Re: Otokichi

#29

Post by [deleted] »

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #28
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the essay you linked: "Traces of Japan were not entirely unknown in the Northwest. More than 1,000 Japanese ships are estimated to have disappeared during the Exclusion Era (1633-1854). Most presumably sank in storms, but iron fittings and other remnants of some of those ships washed up on the Northwest coast over time. A few drifted to coastal areas farther south with survivors on board. According to historian…

And the iron was being reused to make tools, on a fairly large scale apparently[1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_Am...

[deleted]

Re: Otokichi

#30

Post by saberdancer »

themodelplumber wrote: post #14

Fascinating. Something that made me curious: > There the ship was fired on repeatedly, and King was not able to accomplish his objective to establish diplomatic contact So...why not place a brief message into a few bottles and drop them in the waters around the populated zones? "We have here your citizens named so-and-so, and will return around this date, and then this date + about 12M, to try again. Please don't sho…

If they wanted to get them to shore, they could have thrown anchor at any spot other than next to a fortress armed with guns. Then you row them to the shore and leave. It's not like there was mass surveillance or ability to identify anyone.

It's likely the captain had no big incentive to go out of his way for these Japanese so when he wasn't allowed in port, he just left.

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