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An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

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Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#21

Post by dogma1138 »

glaive123 wrote: post #19
knowthevibes wrote: post #15

Immoral to give survivors options other than the largely unused hospital and law enforcement processes? Any sexual assault counselor should know that survivors most often do not want to be re-traumatized through being physically manipulated by another individual. If COVID-19 has shown us anything, it is that remote options ARE feasible. Self-use kits were used in Monterey and Marin counties in California out of neces…

It's interesting to see the only comments defending this startup are from newly created accounts. The article you shared appears to conflict with what this startup is offering. > It's being called a "temporary protocol" that so far, has only been used once on April 5. Nassoura said the process starts by the victim calling law enforcement and then, "The officer goes to the victim's residence, places it (the sexual ass…

This is the issue here the issue of CoC isn’t about what happens to the kit once it’s submitted but how the collection is done.

What ever temporary protocol California or any other state has put into place I can guarantee you that it involves the forensic nurse not only instructing the victim on how to use the kit but verifies that the victim collects samples only from themselves and that these samples are sealed in an tamper resilient bag/container by the victim in clear view of the nurse.

As in the nurse has to watch the victim swab their own vagina, anus, finger nails and any other body part that may have DNA evidence and place the swab in a bag and seal it.

The seal would then be inspected by law enforcement and the lab and the CoC would be documented and preserved.

At that point the amount of doubt is more or less identical to having consensual sex to gather DNA evidence and then falsely accusing someone of rape which can happen regardless of where the evidence collection takes place.

This is the part these kits cannot provide and this is why they cannot be admissible there is quite a big difference between having consensual sex to collect DNA evidence which is easier to prove and just being able to take a cotton swab to someone toothbrush or water bottle.

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#23

Post by JoeyBananas »

underseacables wrote: post #2

Rather than a “rape kit start up,” which is a really awful phrase to use, why don’t we process all of the backlog rape kits that are sitting in the evidence lockers across the country, first.

This is a weak argument because those goals are not mutually exclusive

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#24

Post by oh_sigh »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #18
oh_sigh wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the startup is basically just a few people who believe in the idea, whereas the backlog of rape kids is a problem distributed over the entire country through the institutional neglect of thousands of people? If the two people who founded this startup were going to take your advice - how would they do it? Just send a check to crime labs all over the country and hope they process the kit? Start a letter writing…

Doing it as a startup means you’re out of touch, don’t appreciate the scale of the problem and the work involved, and the risk you put survivors in of not being able to get justice. This is a policy and legal challenge, not a business.

Okay - so let's cancel the startup that these two people are doing. How should they best see the changes they think need to happen?

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#25

Post by e6fuehere »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #18
oh_sigh wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the startup is basically just a few people who believe in the idea, whereas the backlog of rape kids is a problem distributed over the entire country through the institutional neglect of thousands of people? If the two people who founded this startup were going to take your advice - how would they do it? Just send a check to crime labs all over the country and hope they process the kit? Start a letter writing…

Doing it as a startup means you’re out of touch, don’t appreciate the scale of the problem and the work involved, and the risk you put survivors in of not being able to get justice. This is a policy and legal challenge, not a business.

Why can't it be both? The tweets and comments like yours come off as wildly tone deaf to me. The system is failing people /now/ and there are people trying to provide a supplemental solution to that failing. If startups like this are so problematic then the answer should be rendering them irrelevant not demonizing their efforts. Give victims something better instead of fighting to limit competing options. If the diy kits end up failing to demonstrate legal merit then it's not like they'll be especially in-demand anyway.

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#26

Post by thedudeabides5 »

dogma1138 wrote: post #11
thedudeabides5 wrote: post #5

At home kits have been admitted to courts in California. The tweets claiming these kits are inadmissible is false. https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/04/9727395/rape-kit-at... A judge determines what's admissible in a court of law. That's why your texts, social media posts, etc are all admissable. The companies in this space are not trying to fool anyone into not going into the hospital. They are trying to help se…

There is no way that these would work in the long term without chain of custody, even if some judge would approve the admission of these it would definitely lead and an appeal and there is no way the higher courts would uphold the tests, keep in mind that at home DNA kits are not even admissible in custody / paternal hearings if they are employed in a state that only require the consent of a single parent then at bes…

You don't know what 'chain of custody means.'

Chain of custody is about tracking evidence after it's received by the justice system.

Chain of custody is about tracking that evidence after the cop gets it, to audit/avoid tampering.

If you get assaulted, and you bring in soiled underwear in a paper bag, that is admissible in court.

The chain of custody starts when the cop puts that underwear in an evidence bag. Otherwise courts would never be able to admit ANY evidence brought forward by a victim.

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#27

Post by dogma1138 »

thedudeabides5 wrote: post #26
dogma1138 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way that these would work in the long term without chain of custody, even if some judge would approve the admission of these it would definitely lead and an appeal and there is no way the higher courts would uphold the tests, keep in mind that at home DNA kits are not even admissible in custody / paternal hearings if they are employed in a state that only require the consent of a single parent then at bes…

You don't know what 'chain of custody means.' Chain of custody is about tracking evidence after it's received by the justice system. Chain of custody is about tracking that evidence after the cop gets it, to audit/avoid tampering. If you get assaulted, and you bring in soiled underwear in a paper bag, that is admissible in court. The chain of custody starts when the cop puts that underwear in an evidence bag. Otherwi…

No, the chain of custody starts when the evidence is collected, specifically from where and by what means without that there is no way to establish a CoC.

With these kits there is no way to verify that the DNA swab came from rape victims body or someone’s toothbrush.

This is the problem with these kits, any use of such kit would require a forensic nurse observing the collection, and that each swab is sealed in an evidence tamper bag and then the chain of custody can be established from that point on.

This is no different than any other physical evidence it either needs to be collected from the scene or forensically proven to be connected to it if it was recovered later or by someone else, and in cases when it does the defense will and quite likely successfully get it thrown out.

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#28

Post by candiodari »

justinlilly wrote: post #4

Admissibility in court feels like the barest minimum of requirements here, to say nothing of the other services like counceling the linked thread discusses.

Yes, but having the option to admit this in court, including of course the choice to NOT admit it, to stop all proceedings, in the justice system and/or court seems equally the barest minimum of requirements. Including the option to deny anything happened everywhere. To avoid and/or dealing with counceling (or God forbid, CPS. There's plenty of children and adults who are terrified of dealing with any official at all because of their experiences with CPS. They, frankly, have good reason). That's the requirement that I think this private rape kit does better than the official one.

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#29

Post by nucleardog »

e6fuehere wrote: post #25
toomuchtodo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing it as a startup means you’re out of touch, don’t appreciate the scale of the problem and the work involved, and the risk you put survivors in of not being able to get justice. This is a policy and legal challenge, not a business.

Why can't it be both? The tweets and comments like yours come off as wildly tone deaf to me. The system is failing people /now/ and there are people trying to provide a supplemental solution to that failing. If startups like this are so problematic then the answer should be rendering them irrelevant not demonizing their efforts. Give victims something better instead of fighting to limit competing options. If the diy…

> The system is failing people /now/ and there are people trying to provide a supplemental solution to that failing.

Frankly, this sounds like typical Silicon Valley attitude applied totally inappropriately.

"Just get a minimum product out, we'll figure out how to make it work later, or pivot to another market."

That's fine if you're releasing the next todo list app. That's not fine if you're providing women rape kits that, for all intents and purposes a rape kit would be used for, are useless. This severely impacts people's lives at their absolute worst moments.

You might give them the benefit of the doubt if there was even a remotely feasible path for this to be useful without a major rework of the justice system in ways that would severely compromise it in several other aspects.

Given the seemingly insurmountable hurdles, it's hard to see this as anything but a way to exploit vulnerable or fearful women to their own detriment. Especially when they'd previously co-opted the MeToo movement for their branding while suggesting women stock up on these "prior to being assaulted".

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#30

Post by glaive123 »

candiodari wrote: post #28
justinlilly wrote: post #4

Admissibility in court feels like the barest minimum of requirements here, to say nothing of the other services like counceling the linked thread discusses.

Yes, but having the option to admit this in court, including of course the choice to NOT admit it, to stop all proceedings, in the justice system and/or court seems equally the barest minimum of requirements. Including the option to deny anything happened everywhere. To avoid and/or dealing with counceling (or God forbid, CPS. There's plenty of children and adults who are terrified of dealing with any official at all…

Except DIY kits are not an option to admit in court. They are not admissible. There is a temporary order allowing them to be collected during COVID-19 in California only. It is yet to see if these will even hold up.
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