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Decentralised content moderation

martin.kleppmann.com

21–30 of 135 posts

Re: Decentralised content moderation

#21
Matrix published an interesting concept for decentralised content moderation [0]. I think this is the way to go.

Edit: Discussed here [1] and here [2].

[0]: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/10/19/combating-abuse-in-matrix...

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24826951

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24836987

Re: Decentralised content moderation

#22
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FTA: "even though such filtering saves you from having to see things you don’t like, it doesn’t stop the objectionable content from existing". He doesn't want upvoting/downvoting, he wants complete eradication (of whatever the majority happens to objects to right now).

This is the crux of censorship. If anything, it hinges on hubris: the censor assumes to know which content deserves to exist at all. The need for censoring content still exists because certain kinds of content are deemed illegal, and failure to remove that may end up in serving jail time. On the other hand, moderation is named very aptly. That said, I fully support the right of private companies to censor content on…

-Devils Advocate

> I fully support the right of private companies to censor content on their premises as they see fit.

Those private companies don't have the right to censor content on their premises 'as they see fit' without giving up protections afforded to them in law as 'platforms'. The question is at what level of moderation and/or bias do they become a 'publisher', not a 'platform'.

> If they do a poor job, I can just avoid using their services.

Issues arise when the poor job spills over outside their service. As an example, The people who live around the US Capitol endangered by pipe bombs in part because of incitement organised on Twitter.

Re: Decentralised content moderation

#23

I've been thinking hard about decentralized content moderation, especially around chatrooms, for years. More specifically because I'm building a large, chatroom-like service for TV. I think it's evident from Facebook, Twitter, et al that human moderation of very dynamic situations is incredibly hard, maybe even impossible. I've been brewing up strategies of letting the community itself moderate because a machine real…

How do you deal with the problem that the content the current community promotes isn't necessarily the content that is best for your product in the long run (what if they are very dismissive of new members, hampering growth?), or even legal?

Re: Decentralised content moderation

#24

I find it pretty interesting that Martin does not mention the kind of community member-driven up/downvote mechanism found on this site (and elsewhere) as an example of decentralised content moderation. Edit: now I see Slashdot and Reddit mentioned at the end in the updates section (I don't remember seeing them on my first read, but that might just be me).

Isn't it just an example of democratic content moderation? We up vote, down vote and flag content. We don't get the ability to do so unless we are a community member of some tenure. It's augmented by centralized moderation by a handful of moderators. How well it works is always a topic here.

> Isn't it just an example of democratic content moderation

A democracy makes great efforts to ensure 1 person = 1 vote. Online platforms do not.

Re: Decentralised content moderation

#25

I've been thinking hard about decentralized content moderation, especially around chatrooms, for years. More specifically because I'm building a large, chatroom-like service for TV. I think it's evident from Facebook, Twitter, et al that human moderation of very dynamic situations is incredibly hard, maybe even impossible. I've been brewing up strategies of letting the community itself moderate because a machine real…

Honestly after seeing the state of most subreddits (aka they become echo-chamber of whatever the main moderators find "worth of value" and very toxic about whatever is against their idea), community self-moderation seems a total failure.

Re: Decentralised content moderation

#26

I've been thinking hard about decentralized content moderation, especially around chatrooms, for years. More specifically because I'm building a large, chatroom-like service for TV. I think it's evident from Facebook, Twitter, et al that human moderation of very dynamic situations is incredibly hard, maybe even impossible. I've been brewing up strategies of letting the community itself moderate because a machine real…

> I've been brewing up strategies of letting the community itself moderate because a machine really cannot "see" what content is good or bad, re: context.

There's a ton of material on that subject, thankfully; look at news groups, HN itself (flagging), Stack Overflow, Joel Spolsky's blogs on Discourse, etc etc etc. My girlfriend is active on Twitter and frequently joins in mass reporting of certain content, which is both a strong signal, and easily influenced by mobs.

Re: Decentralised content moderation

#27

I've been thinking hard about decentralized content moderation, especially around chatrooms, for years. More specifically because I'm building a large, chatroom-like service for TV. I think it's evident from Facebook, Twitter, et al that human moderation of very dynamic situations is incredibly hard, maybe even impossible. I've been brewing up strategies of letting the community itself moderate because a machine real…

> I think it's evident from Facebook, Twitter, et al that human moderation of very dynamic situations is incredibly hard, maybe even impossible.

How would you know what the evidence tells us from those platforms, when their criteria and resources for moderation are proprietary and opaque?

FB is a profitable company.

Have you calculated how many moderators could be paid $20 per hour out of $15.92 billion profit?

Approximately 400,000.

Re: Decentralised content moderation

#28
Good piece. This line articulates the problem well: "without objectivity and consistency, moderation can easily degenerate into a situation where one group of people forces their opinions on everyone else, like them or not." And it gets to the core of the problem. Objectivity and consistency are extremely difficult to scale and maintain over time. They require constant reinforcement from environment, context, and culture.

Re: Decentralised content moderation

#29
post #10

I find it pretty interesting that Martin does not mention the kind of community member-driven up/downvote mechanism found on this site (and elsewhere) as an example of decentralised content moderation. Edit: now I see Slashdot and Reddit mentioned at the end in the updates section (I don't remember seeing them on my first read, but that might just be me).

How would up/down votes work on a decentralized platform? Wouldn't it be easy to game by standing up your own server and wishing up a legion of sockpuppets? There's a whole Moonshot of spam resistance that's going to need to happen in Mastodon/Matrix/Whatever.

The problem you describe is called Sybil resistance and is known to be hard, but there are some example working systems such as Bitcoin.

Re: Decentralised content moderation

#30
Let's take one step back. Just like in the Title I vs Title II debate, let's go one step earlier. WHY do we have these issues in the first place?

It's because our entire society is permeated with ideas about capitalism and competition being the best way to organize something, almost part of the moral fabric of the country. Someone "built it", now they ought to "own" the platform. Then they get all this responsibility to moderate, not moderate, or whatever.

Compare with science, wikipedia, open source projects, etc. where things are peer reviewed before the wider public sees them, and there is collaboration instead of competition. People contribute to a growing snowball. There is no profit motive or market competition. There is no private ownership of ideas. There are no celebrities, no heroes. No one can tweet to 5 million people at 3 am.

Somehow, this has mistakenly become a “freedom of speech” issue instead of an issue of capitalism and private ownership of the means of distribution. In this perverse sense, "freedom of speech" even means corporations should have a right to buy local news stations and tell news anchors the exact talking points to say, word for word, or replacing the human mouthpieces if they don't...

Really this is just capitalism, where capital consists of audience/followers instead of money/dollars. Top down control by a corporation is normal in capitalism. You just see a landlord (Parler) crying about higher landlord ... ironically crying to the even higher landlord, the US government - to use force and “punish” Facebook.

Going further, it means corporations (considered by some to have the same rights as people) using their infrastructure and distribution agreements to push messages and agendas crafted by a small group of people to millions. Celebrity culture is the result. Ashton Kutcher was the first to 1 million Twitter followers because kingmakers in the movie industry chose him earlier on to star in movies, and so on down the line.

Many companies themselves employ social media managers to regularly moderate their own Facebook Pages and comments, deleting even off-topic comments. Why should they have an inalienable right to be on a platform? So inside their own website and page these private companies can moderate and choose not to partner with someone but private companies Facebook and Twitter should be prevented from making decisions about content on THEIR own platform. You want a platform that can’t kick you off? It’s called open source software, and decentralized networks. You know what they don’t have?

Private ownership of the whole network. “But I built it so I get to own it” is the capitalist attitude that leads to exactly this situation. The only way we will get there is if people build it and then DON’T own the whole platform. Think about it!

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