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Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

nytimes.com

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Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#21

Problem with this is that facial recognition is not perfect. It's no better than fnger printing which often leads to unjust arrests. There is no replacement for detective work and the government shouldn't be lazy to exclude it. The best it can do is narrow down suspects.

It doesn’t need to be perfect though. People facial recognition isn’t perfect either. When they post some mugshot and ask the public for tips I’m sure some tips come in for people who look like the suspect but aren’t. Proper police work should be able to rule out the false positives quickly.

The problem only happens if law enforcement believes that the matches are somehow infallible and refuse to look for or believe in other evidence that would rule out a suspect.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#22
post #5

It seems that face recognition could be as dangerous as country laws are. China's social credit system is a strong mirror to its government. The Black Mirror scenario with all those people scared to even talk publicly could (if once real) be strongly country specific, if we get to the point, where life drastically depend on ethics of technology laws.

I think we already have a system in the West where people are afraid to speak openly; it’s referred to as cancel culture but exists elsewhere. The difference is that it’s not a formal government system but more of a mob social justice system.

Comparing cancel culture to China's social credit system is ... not a great choice, in my opinion.

Regardless, I've had this theory about cancel culture. I don't necessarily agree with cancel culture, for the aforementioned problem of it being mob social justice. But it seems to me like it has arisen out of a failure by the real justice system. Issues like sexism in particular, which affect half of the population, have been ignored and marginalized. It took how long for Bill Cosby's heinous crimes to finally be prosecuted? More over, how likely would it have been for his crimes to yet again have been swept under the rug had cancel culture not fostered an environment where the victims felt comfortable coming forward?

The very topic we're discussing, the terrorist attack on our Capitol, is another example of racist failures of our police force.

So is it really any surprise that society has collectively taken matters into their owns hands?

Again, I don't _agree_ with the idea that society at large should pass their own judgements. I'd rather the courts do that. But they haven't been. And aren't. And we just suffered through one of the worst years on record of blatant police abuse and court inaction.

If we want to get rid of cancel culture I think we need to fix our policing and justice system to the extent that society feels they don't need to take up the mantel of justice themselves.

In other words, I don't see value in deriding cancel culture. If one feels that cancel culture is wrong, my belief is that one should be calling for action to repair the _cause_ of cancel culture, not the symptoms. And that cause is a prejudiced justice system.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#23
post #5

It seems that face recognition could be as dangerous as country laws are. China's social credit system is a strong mirror to its government. The Black Mirror scenario with all those people scared to even talk publicly could (if once real) be strongly country specific, if we get to the point, where life drastically depend on ethics of technology laws.

I think we already have a system in the West where people are afraid to speak openly; it’s referred to as cancel culture but exists elsewhere. The difference is that it’s not a formal government system but more of a mob social justice system.

True, but what's frightening now is that the mob/SJWs are aligned (mostly) with the new administration, whose party has swept up all power in the government.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#24
post #19

Problem with this is that facial recognition is not perfect. It's no better than fnger printing which often leads to unjust arrests. There is no replacement for detective work and the government shouldn't be lazy to exclude it. The best it can do is narrow down suspects.

> Problem with this is that facial recognition is not perfect. Why is that a problem? Are there any investigative tools that are perfect or is there a reason why facial recognition should be held to a higher standard? > It's no better than fnger printing which often leads to unjust arrests. You need to be more specific. Why is it no better? Has facial recognition been demonstrated to lead to more unjust arrests than…

The problems come from when it is hailed as perfect and arrests are made solely on a facial recognition result[0].

Facial recognition has also time and time again proven to be racially biased[1][2].

Not to mention how easy it is to create a surveillance state with facial recognition[3].

[0] https://threatpost.com/lawsuit-claims-flawed-facial-recognit...

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/19/tech/facial-recognition-study...

[2] http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2020/racial-discrimination...

[3] https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/dec/9/social-credi...

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." It's not my place to go around quoting the rules, but I was just hoping to calm the waters a little bit. We could all use a bit of "let's step back and talk this over rather than argue passionately for a position," I think. E.g. the article is about the implication of AI on society at large.

This is BS, with all due respect. Are people not allowed to express strong, lucid, and well-reasoned opinions on existentially important topics?

No, they are not allowed, on HN.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#26
> He spent 10 days in jail after facial recognition led to arrest of the wrong man (nj.com)

>258 points 12 days ago 174 comments

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25562321

...

> I got my file from Clearview AI (onezero.medium.com)

> 811 points 9 months ago 224 comments

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22681207

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#27
post #4

I realize that this is one of those situations where I'm supposed to be supportive of the use of facial recognition, but I'm still uncomfortable. Facial recognition seems like an all or nothing deal to me, and even after the capitol has been raided... I still opt for 'nothing'.

Is it that different to wanted posters or publishing cctv of a crime? I get why people don't want facial recognition cameras on every street corner but using it to identify people from pics is a different activity...

Edit: I completely agree there is nothing special about this case. No exigent circumstances.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." It's not my place to go around quoting the rules, but I was just hoping to calm the waters a little bit. We could all use a bit of "let's step back and talk this over rather than argue passionately for a position," I think. E.g. the article is about the implication of AI on society at large.

This is BS, with all due respect. Are people not allowed to express strong, lucid, and well-reasoned opinions on existentially important topics?

People are certainly allowed to express strong opinions. It can be cathartic to write out your frustrations. But HN isn't the place for that. Comments like that, even though they _feel_ like they contribute to something, tend to really just be selfish and don't contribute to discussion. Political threads on HN get filled with 1000s of such comments, and none of them lead to _interesting_ discussion. Interesting, thoughtful discussion is what we're after, and what we tend to see more of here than other places. That's what I, and I believe the majority of users here, come here for.

I've personally been frustrated by the recent political threads, not because I don't want to see those threads here, but because I desperately want the comments to say something _interesting_. Something thoughtful that I can't get elsewhere (from the news or Reddit). But about an hour after such articles show up they're so bloated only a single thread of comments is visible per page, making it too difficult to navigate and find any useful discussion that might be happening.

In other words, HN isn't our personal emotional outlet. It can be used for that _occasionally_, but since _everyone_ uses it for that under certain topics like politics, it's best to avoid doing so there.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#29
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we already have a system in the West where people are afraid to speak openly; it’s referred to as cancel culture but exists elsewhere. The difference is that it’s not a formal government system but more of a mob social justice system.

True, but what's frightening now is that the mob/SJWs are aligned (mostly) with the new administration, whose party has swept up all power in the government.

"Frightening?" No, what's frightening is the armed insurrection that happened last Wednesday.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#30
post #10

[flagged]

Trump rallied his followers after years of violent rhetoric. Him, his family, his lawyer Giuliani urged things like "trial by combat" for Trump's enemies.

He timed his rally to end at 1pm, when the tally started down the road. He then sent his followers to pressure "weak" Republicans within the Capitol building for the purposes of urging the overthrow of certified votes in favor of replacing them with unilateral votes for Trump.

They brought zip ties. They called for Pence's hanging.

Trump called Pence during the siege trying to pressure him, and the call had to be cut short because the insurgents were already inside the building.

This was a legislative and violent coup. Cry more about liberals in reaction to a literal coup attempt. Please, I want to hear more about how this is all antifa/BLM's fault some more. How the liberal agenda is a boot upon your neck while Trump's followers attempt violent and legislative coups against the citizens of this nation.

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