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Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

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Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#21

Post by jcims »

ttyprintk wrote: post #15
jcims wrote: post #6

coup /ko͞o/ noun 1. a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government. Sudden? Sure. Violent? Yes but on the lower end of the spectrum of human conflict. One person got shot by the police, one died of a heart attack, the rest had ‘medical emergencies’. (Edit: An officer died after being attacked by one of the rioters.) The part I’m not understanding is where was the attempt to seize power?

Both a successful and failed coup are attempts to seize power. It seems to me that failed coups are more obvious because successful ones can rewrite themselves to avoid being mistaken as riots. If you can't tell this is a coup, then it might be your first -- the punchline from: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/trumps-far... Riots are sudden, violent and illegal. This was a riot organized to specifica…

> This was a riot organized to specifically stop the transfer of power.

How? This is the part I'm missing. Yes it got stalled for a few hours while everything was going down, but after folks got their selfies and pilfered swag it was done. I'm not sure this motely crew really anticipated squaring off against the US Secret Service and National Guard to indefinitely suppress the transfer of power.

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#22

Post by erentz »

jcims wrote: post #21
ttyprintk wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both a successful and failed coup are attempts to seize power. It seems to me that failed coups are more obvious because successful ones can rewrite themselves to avoid being mistaken as riots. If you can't tell this is a coup, then it might be your first -- the punchline from: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/trumps-far... Riots are sudden, violent and illegal. This was a riot organized to specifica…

> This was a riot organized to specifically stop the transfer of power. How? This is the part I'm missing. Yes it got stalled for a few hours while everything was going down, but after folks got their selfies and pilfered swag it was done. I'm not sure this motely crew really anticipated squaring off against the US Secret Service and National Guard to indefinitely suppress the transfer of power.

If it had been successful it would just be called a “coup”. It’s the fact that it wasn’t successful, that they were unable to reach and steal the ballots, and were eventually expelled from the building that makes it a “failed coup attempt.”

There were organized elements in the group. The event was organized on Parler, and other sites, a week in advance. They were goaded and led by the president, his family, and loyal senators. Their aim was political, to retain power using violent undemocratic means for their leaders. They had weapons and bombs. They had enough planning to position caches of weapons and ammunition. They weren’t there to protest some new agricultural rule and just got out of hand. It was a coup attempt by any definition. It is only because it happened in America people are having trouble with that. There’d be no such trouble if this happened in Mali, or Niger, or Chad, or Albania, or any European country.

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#23

Post by BiologyBum »

courtf wrote: post #8
petertodd wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.cbs58.com/news/what-we-know-about-the-4-deaths-i... One person was shot by police. As for the other three: "One adult female and two adult males appear to have suffered from separate medical emergencies, which resulted in their deaths," Contee said. "Any loss of life in the District is tragic and our thoughts are with anyone impacted by their loss." At least one one those medical emergencies was simply a…

Trump was actually hoping the entire gravy seal battalion would suffer coronaries on the walk to the capitol building, it's the only way he gets out of this without the mob turning on him. Think about it, Trump invites these gas bags to the white house, and then gets em all riled up about something or other, then tells them to march to the capitol? That's 9 miles away! A march of that length is practically a death se…

Just want to correct you. The march from the White House to Capitol Hill is only about 2 miles. Still probably was too far for some of the insurrectionists...

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#24

Post by [deleted] »

jcims wrote: post #18
zerocrates wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, they stormed the seat of power of the legislature, halted the process of officially determining the next president, and caused the evacuation of a joint session of Congress, all quite literally under the banner of the loser of the election. How successful at it do they have to be to even rise to "attempt" in your mind? The people who came in armed and with zip-tie flex cuffs, what were they attempting to do?

In my opinion this was a sloppy mob that bum rushed reprehensible security and got farther than they ever expected. People die in riots all of the time, I don't really see what elevates this to anything beyond that...the process got stalled for a few hours and then proceeded. If you want to call it a coup attempt be my guest, I just think it's histrionic.

[deleted]

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#25

Post by Pilottwave »

aaron695 wrote: post #3

> Another video showed a police officer allowing a rioter to take a selfie with him inside the Capitol The alternative for that officer was violence. While surrounded. The lies coming out of the media (which normally lie he took the selfie with the protesters) at the moment are insane. Sure, "Trump deliberately attempted a coup".... because he's mentally ill. But the media is actually pulling off a real coup by consi…

Boring articles don't get shared. Outrageous ones do. It's just businesses

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#26

Post by courtf »

BiologyBum wrote: post #23
courtf wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump was actually hoping the entire gravy seal battalion would suffer coronaries on the walk to the capitol building, it's the only way he gets out of this without the mob turning on him. Think about it, Trump invites these gas bags to the white house, and then gets em all riled up about something or other, then tells them to march to the capitol? That's 9 miles away! A march of that length is practically a death se…

Just want to correct you. The march from the White House to Capitol Hill is only about 2 miles. Still probably was too far for some of the insurrectionists...

A lot of people are saying that Trump gallantly led the march in a few unnecessary loops before they arrived at the capitol.

Yeah he had the presidential limo pacing ahead of crowd while he dangled one luscious, bizarrely hairless orange leg out an open door to keep up their spirits.

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#27

Post by cmurf »

jcims wrote: post #18
zerocrates wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, they stormed the seat of power of the legislature, halted the process of officially determining the next president, and caused the evacuation of a joint session of Congress, all quite literally under the banner of the loser of the election. How successful at it do they have to be to even rise to "attempt" in your mind? The people who came in armed and with zip-tie flex cuffs, what were they attempting to do?

In my opinion this was a sloppy mob that bum rushed reprehensible security and got farther than they ever expected. People die in riots all of the time, I don't really see what elevates this to anything beyond that...the process got stalled for a few hours and then proceeded. If you want to call it a coup attempt be my guest, I just think it's histrionic.

Was it violent? Yes, it was illegal entry by force. Was there plunder? Yes, property was stolen. Was there pillaging? Yes, property was damaged. Was the capitol occupied by an unlawful force having evicting the lawful power? Yes. The entire Congress was evacuated under the threat.

A sloppy mob sacked the U.S. capitol, and occupied it for a few hours.

If this exact same thing happened to the White House, would you call it a coup attempt?

Do you remember last month's attempted kidnapping of the Michigan governor that was foiled? Are you aware their backup plan, if they couldn't find the governor, was to lock themselves in with the legislature and start executing them? That's certainly violent, and the legislators are certainly where power is held in a democracy. Executing them would definitely be the violent overthrow of that government, quite a lot more so than the executive. Not least in terms of numbers, the greater difficult of replacing them, in contrast the straightforward presidential succession process.

You knew that the Vice President was with the legislators in the capitol when this transpired, as was the Speaker of the House. Right? The #2 and #3 in the order of presidential succession?

In my opinion, your position looks timid, lacks imagination and awareness. Perhaps you're not American and have no attachment or pride in the the U.S. capitol being sacked by a sloppy mob that included white supremacists, neo-Nazis, Trump flag waiving cultists and Confederate battle flag waiving losers.

Does their incompetency make it less serious of a problem? You really have no imagination at all for how very differently things might look had it been more sophisticated?

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#28

Post by ChrisRR »

jcims wrote: post #6

coup /ko͞o/ noun 1. a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government. Sudden? Sure. Violent? Yes but on the lower end of the spectrum of human conflict. One person got shot by the police, one died of a heart attack, the rest had ‘medical emergencies’. (Edit: An officer died after being attacked by one of the rioters.) The part I’m not understanding is where was the attempt to seize power?

Well their call from trump was to convince them to do the right thing, when confirming Biden's presidency.

So that heavily implies that whatever their methods, the intention was to get them to ignore the democratic process and confirm trump instead

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#29

Post by [deleted] »

erentz wrote: post #22
jcims wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This was a riot organized to specifically stop the transfer of power. How? This is the part I'm missing. Yes it got stalled for a few hours while everything was going down, but after folks got their selfies and pilfered swag it was done. I'm not sure this motely crew really anticipated squaring off against the US Secret Service and National Guard to indefinitely suppress the transfer of power.

If it had been successful it would just be called a “coup”. It’s the fact that it wasn’t successful, that they were unable to reach and steal the ballots, and were eventually expelled from the building that makes it a “failed coup attempt.” There were organized elements in the group. The event was organized on Parler, and other sites, a week in advance. They were goaded and led by the president, his family, and loyal…

[deleted]

Re: Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup

#30

Post by jcims »

cmurf wrote: post #27
jcims wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion this was a sloppy mob that bum rushed reprehensible security and got farther than they ever expected. People die in riots all of the time, I don't really see what elevates this to anything beyond that...the process got stalled for a few hours and then proceeded. If you want to call it a coup attempt be my guest, I just think it's histrionic.

Was it violent? Yes, it was illegal entry by force. Was there plunder? Yes, property was stolen. Was there pillaging? Yes, property was damaged. Was the capitol occupied by an unlawful force having evicting the lawful power? Yes. The entire Congress was evacuated under the threat. A sloppy mob sacked the U.S. capitol, and occupied it for a few hours. If this exact same thing happened to the White House, would you cal…

I think you've encapsulated my problem with the coup talk. Too much imagination and not enough evidence.

If they interview people from that group and an actual plan emerges beyond mess up the Capitol building and steal shit I'll eat crow.

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