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Over 100 Scientists and Doctors Call for Increased Vitamin D to Combat Covid-19

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Re: Over 100 Scientists and Doctors Call for Increased Vitamin D to Combat Covid-19

#21

Post by incrudible »

jupiter90000 wrote: post #15
incrudible wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have doubts about some of these "mask wearing" studies too. I'm still wearing a mask. I'm still taking Vitamin D. These are low-risk interventions. I'm not going to wait for some p value to get smaller to take action.

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing what they think makes sense to them -- scientific studies should still be just that though, following sound principles to be able to draw realistic conclusions. If we use flawed studies to convince others that something is true, that doesn't seem fine to me.

Most studies are flawed. We don't know that Vitamin D works. We also don't know that it doesn't work.

Therefore, we need to consider either possibilities. Given that it is such a low-risk intervention, even a 99% chance that Vitamin D doesn't work would make supplementing worthwhile.

Re: Over 100 Scientists and Doctors Call for Increased Vitamin D to Combat Covid-19

#22

Post by irq11 »

kpfleger wrote: post #2

185 experts. Over 100 medical doctors. Roughly 100 professors, including many of the most respected vitamin D experts in the world---check out the list of names and qualifications yourself. Please read the link before posting about correlation or other opinions on the topic. The point is to note the aggregate credibility of the backers here. This is analogous to the open letter done for face masks last spring.

The open letter for face masks is a great example for why this kind of thing is dubious.

All prior high-quality evidence disputed the claim:

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/podcasts-webinars/specia...

The subsequent evidence of real-world effectiveness isn’t great: cases are skyrocketing around the northern hemisphere, and mask mandates aren’t making a difference. The only randomized controlled trial ever conducted for masks and covid was not able to detect any protective effect, yet was rejected from multiple journals because of “consensus”:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/vinay-prasad/89778

Science by signature count isn’t science; it’s a popularity contest. It’s perfectly fine to advocate for a belief, but nobody should pretend that they have the “scientific” argument simply because their signature list is longer.

Re: Over 100 Scientists and Doctors Call for Increased Vitamin D to Combat Covid-19

#23

Post by brutal_chaos_ »

Exmoor wrote: post #19
tmcw wrote: post #4

Hacker news is fixated on the Vitamin D hypothesis. 142 posts in the last year, many hitting the front page.

As someone who first learned that healthy Vitamin D levels were known to decrease respiratory illness severity (regardless if they help with COVID) I have mixed feelings about the repeated front-page posts. On one hand, I think it's useful information to know. On the other hand, it starts feeling a little weird. Like that person you knew in high school who claimed that some marijuana product cured basically any illne…

Be careful not to conflated this letter with studies. If 142 letters were posted, I'd be right there with you. AFAIK(I haven't checked them all) the other links are mostly studies.

Re: Over 100 Scientists and Doctors Call for Increased Vitamin D to Combat Covid-19

#24

Post by Tagbert »

incrudible wrote: post #9
jupiter90000 wrote: post #5

Worth a read, more in depth analysis of some of these studies: https://liorpachter.wordpress.com/2020/11/17/mathematical-an...

I have doubts about some of these "mask wearing" studies too. I'm still wearing a mask. I'm still taking Vitamin D. These are low-risk interventions. I'm not going to wait for some p value to get smaller to take action.

Since most mask studies are done in high/extended exposure environments like hospitals, they are not the best model for most people’s use.

This summer, the state of Kansas did an (inadvertent) infield experiment where some counties implemented mask mandates and other counties did not. After a few week, the non-mask mandate counties infection rates increased rapidly. The mask mandate counties’ infection rate increased on slightly.

Re: Over 100 Scientists and Doctors Call for Increased Vitamin D to Combat Covid-19

#25

Post by shock »

incrudible wrote: post #14
shock wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sleeping well? Were you waking up refreshed in the morning?

Not exactly. However, I've been taking Vitamin D for a while now and I can't say that feel "more refreshed".

I would guess that it depends on what your current vit D level is. Also, depending on your genotype you might be a fast or slow metabolizer of vit D, which would also play a role in how big of a dose you would need.

I recommend the talks/interviews by Dr. Stasha Gominak a neurologist specializing in sleep.

Re: Over 100 Scientists and Doctors Call for Increased Vitamin D to Combat Covid-19

#26

Post by epicureanideal »

shock wrote: post #12
incrudible wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was tested severely deficient. Didn't have any obvious symptoms either.

Sleeping well? Were you waking up refreshed in the morning?

A lot of programmers don't sleep well regardless of their vitamin d intake. Late work, blue light all day, not enough exercise, stress, etc.

Re: Over 100 Scientists and Doctors Call for Increased Vitamin D to Combat Covid-19

#27

Post by Exmoor »

jupiter90000 wrote: post #5

Worth a read, more in depth analysis of some of these studies: https://liorpachter.wordpress.com/2020/11/17/mathematical-an...

I've been following all the COVID related studies (via /r/COVID19, which is one of very few Reddit subs I've found worthwhile) and there is an incredible abundance of garbage studies about COVID19 in general. Tiny sample sizes and ridiculous methodologies run wild. It's unfortunate because some of them get reported on by lazy media and muddy the waters on several things that might reduce the diseases severity.

I hope some bored science writer someday makes a book compiling and critiquing some of the ridiculous "studies" that got written during the pandemic.

I appreciated the linked article's subtle shade-throwing:

> As for Vitamin D administration to hospitalized COVID-19 patients reducing ICU admission, the best one can say about the Córdoba study is that nothing can be learned from it.

Re: Over 100 Scientists and Doctors Call for Increased Vitamin D to Combat Covid-19

#28

Post by jiofih »

irq11 wrote: post #22
kpfleger wrote: post #2

185 experts. Over 100 medical doctors. Roughly 100 professors, including many of the most respected vitamin D experts in the world---check out the list of names and qualifications yourself. Please read the link before posting about correlation or other opinions on the topic. The point is to note the aggregate credibility of the backers here. This is analogous to the open letter done for face masks last spring.

The open letter for face masks is a great example for why this kind of thing is dubious. All prior high-quality evidence disputed the claim: https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/podcasts-webinars/specia... The subsequent evidence of real-world effectiveness isn’t great: cases are skyrocketing around the northern hemisphere, and mask mandates aren’t making a difference. The only randomized controlled trial ever conduct…

> cases are skyrocketing

And comments like yours are one of the reasons.

The study shows that masks do little to protect the wearer - which is kind of obvious as it’s not going to filter incoming air very efficiently, that has never been the purpose of surgical masks. They don’t protect against airborne pathogens and every medical professional knows it.

You need a crítica mass for masks to start reducing transmission rates. Mask use is nowhere near what it should have been, so you cannot take any conclusions out of that.

Re: Over 100 Scientists and Doctors Call for Increased Vitamin D to Combat Covid-19

#29

Post by waterhouse »

kurthr wrote: post #18
incrudible wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have doubts about some of these "mask wearing" studies too. I'm still wearing a mask. I'm still taking Vitamin D. These are low-risk interventions. I'm not going to wait for some p value to get smaller to take action.

I'm not sure what aspect of the "mask wearing" you doubt, but I don't have much doubt in the germ theory of disease, and I've been suggesting wearing a mask since Feb, because it works against just about every communicable respiratory disease from bacteria to virus (or pollen or asbestos). I'd recommend eye protection for COVID as well, because the eyes (along with the lungs) appear to be a higher risk aerosol entry…

Then you were ahead of the WHO, which, according to an article from March 30: https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/world/coronavirus-who-masks-r...

"(CNN) World Health Organization officials Monday said they still recommend people not wear face masks unless they are sick with Covid-19 or caring for someone who is sick.

"There is no specific evidence to suggest that the wearing of masks by the mass population has any potential benefit. In fact, there's some evidence to suggest the opposite in the misuse of wearing a mask properly or fitting it properly," Dr. Mike Ryan, executive director of the WHO health emergencies program, said at a media briefing in Geneva, Switzerland, on Monday."

Certain institutions seem to use the epistemic standard "if something hasn't been rigorously proven to be a good idea, then you shouldn't do it". It's the kind of logic that, consistently applied, would say you shouldn't use parachutes in skydiving because there haven't been randomized controlled studies establishing their effectiveness. I think this is what incrudible is arguing against.

How did such logic take hold in the first place? My first guess is that it's something like, that's the type of logic that lets them definitively say "you shouldn't take xyz homeopathic remedy" instead of "well, our expert doctor says he doesn't expect it to help but he can't completely rule it out, and there isn't any good evidence that it does work".

Re: Over 100 Scientists and Doctors Call for Increased Vitamin D to Combat Covid-19

#30

Post by irq11 »

jiofih wrote: post #28
irq11 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The open letter for face masks is a great example for why this kind of thing is dubious. All prior high-quality evidence disputed the claim: https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/podcasts-webinars/specia... The subsequent evidence of real-world effectiveness isn’t great: cases are skyrocketing around the northern hemisphere, and mask mandates aren’t making a difference. The only randomized controlled trial ever conduct…

> cases are skyrocketing And comments like yours are one of the reasons. The study shows that masks do little to protect the wearer - which is kind of obvious as it’s not going to filter incoming air very efficiently, that has never been the purpose of surgical masks. They don’t protect against airborne pathogens and every medical professional knows it. You need a crítica mass for masks to start reducing transmission…

> Mask use is nowhere near what it should have been

All available evidence shows that you’re wrong.

Self-reported mask usage rates are over 90%, nationwide. Moreover, many of the places with the highest compliance rates (e.g. Los Angeles) have the fastest-growing case counts:

https://delphi.cmu.edu/covidcast/?date=20201018&signalType=v...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/business...

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6943e4.htm

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