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DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

cnbc.com

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Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#21

Post by aprdm »

jvanderbot wrote: post #18
fgonzag wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd start with any one who decided not to ground the planes and deflected responsibility a soon as the first crash happened. They have direct responsibility over the second crash. The I'd go over all the certification process. Any person who concealed information or misled in an official capacity goes to jail. That's the whole point of requiring titled engineers signatures. The buck stops with them.

They were very likely assured by their program managers that the crash was a fluke, presented with convincing test data, and pressured by their bosses, the board, etc etc. These things rarely happen by individual malfeasance. They are part of a system of small mistaken assumptions that compound into big lies.

I agree with you but out of curiosity what do you suggest as a solution ? You believe all we need is the fine and then the company goes under ? If that's true then all the individuals who failed could just as easily go to another company and repeat their failures.

For doctors a failure can make their license get revoked (even tho it doesn't seem to happen very often in practice). Wonder if there could be something similar but indeed it is very hard to find "a person to blame", maybe the CEO? CTO? :)

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#24

Post by dragonwriter »

m1sta_ wrote: post #20
Trias11 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one who has $2.5B is going to jail for anything.

Fines like this typically punish shareholders and lower level employees (via restructuring in response to a need to find budget for the fine).

> Fines like this typically punish shareholders

Good.

That should motivate shareholders to assure that they can hold management of firms they invest in accountable.

> and lower level employees

Which is regrettable, but I’m not sure how any form of corporate sanction could avoid that.

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#25

Post by deepsun »

m1sta_ wrote: post #20
Trias11 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one who has $2.5B is going to jail for anything.

Fines like this typically punish shareholders and lower level employees (via restructuring in response to a need to find budget for the fine).

Boeing belongs to the USA, so US citizens will take the punishment then. Am I right?

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#26

Post by _jal »

csours wrote: post #13
RachelF wrote: post #3

So anyone at Boeing going to jail for killing 346 people?

Who do you think should? An engineer who worked on the system? A manager? What law was broken? If you were in their position, how would you know you were breaking the law? Diffuse responsibility is a real problem. 'Teaching to the test' is a real problem. Normalizing risk is a real problem. Blaming individuals is very satisfying, and it's very easy to do with hindsight, but if you want large complex systems to work b…

I agree to a point. But clucking your tongue and ignoring it is also not the answer.

The way to get less of an undesirable behavior is to make it lead to undesirable outcomes. Unless there is some other operative reason, you're right in another way - we don't have to care where that (dis)incentive comes from.

The firm owners are ultimately responsible - they are responsible for hiring the execs responsible for the firms' actions. Fine the criminal company so hard that shareholders of their future potential employers will think twice about the risks they might impose on their savings.

Of course, this is a national security concern, and so TBTF. Man, isn't the US a great place, if you're filthy rich?

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#27

Post by ineedasername »

jvanderbot wrote: post #18
fgonzag wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd start with any one who decided not to ground the planes and deflected responsibility a soon as the first crash happened. They have direct responsibility over the second crash. The I'd go over all the certification process. Any person who concealed information or misled in an official capacity goes to jail. That's the whole point of requiring titled engineers signatures. The buck stops with them.

They were very likely assured by their program managers that the crash was a fluke, presented with convincing test data, and pressured by their bosses, the board, etc etc. These things rarely happen by individual malfeasance. They are part of a system of small mistaken assumptions that compound into big lies.

wouldn't it be the engineers the get the test data though? (at least directly) instead of the program manager?

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#28

Post by jvanderbot »

aprdm wrote: post #21
jvanderbot wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were very likely assured by their program managers that the crash was a fluke, presented with convincing test data, and pressured by their bosses, the board, etc etc. These things rarely happen by individual malfeasance. They are part of a system of small mistaken assumptions that compound into big lies.

I agree with you but out of curiosity what do you suggest as a solution ? You believe all we need is the fine and then the company goes under ? If that's true then all the individuals who failed could just as easily go to another company and repeat their failures. For doctors a failure can make their license get revoked (even tho it doesn't seem to happen very often in practice). Wonder if there could be something si…

> You believe all we need is the fine and then the company goes under ?

No I don't believe that. There will be firings, demotions, lost bonuses, etc. Maybe there should be more of that, maybe not. A CEO may step down and have trouble finding a similar position, etc.

I don't actually have a suggestion of a better way, I just agree that you can't automatically throw one person into jail.

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#29

Post by ineedasername »

vageli wrote: post #9
lallysingh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Martha Stewart? But that was securities fraud, the only true crime.

> Martha Stewart? But that was securities fraud, the only true crime. I don't think Martha Stewart is a billionaire.

She's > 600 million.

At that level, I'm not sure there's a useful distinction between her level & billionaire

Re: DOJ fines Boeing over $2.5B, charges it with fraud conspiracy

#30

Post by floxy »

lallysingh wrote: post #7
Trias11 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one who has $2.5B is going to jail for anything.

Martha Stewart? But that was securities fraud, the only true crime.

>In March 2004, Stewart was found guilty of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and two counts of lying to a federal investigator. Her securities fraud charge was dismissed.

https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/martha-stewart-net-worth...

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