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What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

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Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#21

Post by ogre_codes »

I don't think a lot of people in the cycling industry are surprised this failed. While design is important, people with money want bikes that have good performance and are light weight. Bling is great, I take pride in my bike... but none of the components I have on my bike are heavier than their more bland looking counterparts. I'll accept half a pound for better suspension, but for a nice looking chain guard? Not a chance.

On high end bikes, bling comes in the form of Anodized aluminum (or titanium), sexy colorful carbon fiber frames, colorful paint, or other parts that are colorful or polished without adding weight.

Performance->Weight->Bling in that order. Looks like Shimano's Coasting program skipped steps 1 and 2 and skipped to Bling.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#23

Post by dashundchen »

jablan wrote: post #12
brudgers wrote: post #2

A description of the Coasting system at Park Tool, https://www.parktool.com/blog/calvins-corner/shimano-coastin...

Thanks, although I am hobbyist bike mechanic, I never heard of Coasting before. Frankly, doesn't sound very attractive - a complicated (proprietary) automatic gear system relying on functioning (proprietary) front hub dynamo... All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears.

> All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears.

It's definitely easy to learn once explained, and every enthusiast knows - but as a cyclist living near a popular bike route, I see a lot of casual riders who appear to have no idea how to use their gears.

The most common thing I see are riders with the cranked up in a high gear on flat land, and you can see them almost standing or straining to turn the crank. I cringe to think about the pain they are inflicting on their knees.

IME once you spend a few minutes teaching someone about their gears, they're usually shocked at how much easier and more efficiently riding is, and enjoy cycling much more.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#24

Post by redelbee »

Increasing ridership can come from tech but I think it’s much more likely to come from better and more bike-centric infrastructure and norms. Separated bike paths, bike storage, showers at offices/work, etc would all make it much more likely for someone to decide to bike.

We could tell people: Decide to bike and save money. Decide to bike and save health. Decide to bike and save the environment.

We can tell people those reasons now but there is still a huge hurdle, and it has nothing to do with the bikes or technology. What if all bike companies (and component manufacturers like Shimano) spent all their R&D budgets on education and lobbying instead of better technology? That might work. Is any one company big enough to make a difference if it went at it alone? Probably not.

I don’t look forward to environmental catastrophe but I do think it could help move cycling into more of a mainstream solution. Then perhaps we could have the will to tackle some of the infrastructure and norm issues that keep cycling a hobby at best.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#25

Post by soared »

brnt wrote: post #20
soared wrote: post #3

I spent some time learning the creative thinking process from an IDEO employee/teacher while in school. One of the early steps is defining your problem by interviewing consumers, which seems like where the misstep occurred. Being an avid cyclist with nearly no friends who bike, I've seen that they are not intimidated by "technology". They are afraid of looking like an idiot. If they ride with me I look really cool wi…

Dutch person here. The thing you foreigners don't get is that cycling shouldn't be regarded as a sport. All your problems with cycling stem from that misconception.

In my opinion, Casual biking cannot exist when you have to tolerate being 12 inches from a 2 ton death machine going 45 MPH.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#26

Post by soared »

EpicEng wrote: post #18
soared wrote: post #3

I spent some time learning the creative thinking process from an IDEO employee/teacher while in school. One of the early steps is defining your problem by interviewing consumers, which seems like where the misstep occurred. Being an avid cyclist with nearly no friends who bike, I've seen that they are not intimidated by "technology". They are afraid of looking like an idiot. If they ride with me I look really cool wi…

>If they ride with me I look really cool with a slick bike and low profile gear No one aside from you and other people who wear that unnecessary gear think it looks cool. Sorry. I don't imagine this is why your friends won't ride with you.

You are misunderstanding my point and injecting your own dislike for bikers where it isn't relevant.

The difference is looking like you know what you're doing, and looking like you have no idea what you're doing. Regardless of the situation (biking, at work, or talking to women at bars) not knowing what you're doing and having that be publicly visible can be a huge hurdle to overcome.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#27

Post by soared »

maxerickson wrote: post #8
soared wrote: post #3

I spent some time learning the creative thinking process from an IDEO employee/teacher while in school. One of the early steps is defining your problem by interviewing consumers, which seems like where the misstep occurred. Being an avid cyclist with nearly no friends who bike, I've seen that they are not intimidated by "technology". They are afraid of looking like an idiot. If they ride with me I look really cool wi…

No one who doesn't own it thinks that low profile bike clothing is cool. Or rather, only people that own low profile bike clothing think it is cool. https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2015/11/13

My comment to a very similar reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25596163

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#28

Post by chromaton »

ogre_codes wrote: post #21

I don't think a lot of people in the cycling industry are surprised this failed. While design is important, people with money want bikes that have good performance and are light weight. Bling is great, I take pride in my bike... but none of the components I have on my bike are heavier than their more bland looking counterparts. I'll accept half a pound for better suspension, but for a nice looking chain guard? Not a…

That's because they were trying to appeal to a completely different audience who doesn't see things that way. From the article, they were trying to focus on ease of use, which many current non-cyclists cited as an important factor.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#29

Post by bowmessage »

dashundchen wrote: post #23
jablan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, although I am hobbyist bike mechanic, I never heard of Coasting before. Frankly, doesn't sound very attractive - a complicated (proprietary) automatic gear system relying on functioning (proprietary) front hub dynamo... All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears.

> All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears. It's definitely easy to learn once explained, and every enthusiast knows - but as a cyclist living near a popular bike route, I see a lot of casual riders who appear to have no idea how to use their gears. The most common thing I see are riders with the cranked up in a high gear on flat land, and y…

Is doing this more damaging to knees than a standard weighted squat?

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#30

Post by zachrose »

medium_burrito wrote: post #9
zachrose wrote: post #4

The core thesis behind the program is exciting. The bike industry in America exists primarily serve a relatively small group of enthusiasts, but it doesn't have to. There's no equivalent to the Dutch department store bikes that, if memory serves correctly, were cheap but simple, low-maintenance, and better outfitted for casual riding (fenders, a light, a lock). As the article suggests, I suspect it's more a problem o…

There are a number of problems for biking in the US, but first among them is we don't have separate bike paths. All the other problems like showers at work, rampant bike theft even from secure storage behind multiple keyed doors at fancy tech companies, excessive spandex are secondary. Cycling as an activity has gone way upmarket in the last 30 years, as there aren't many new people in the sport and the main demograp…

Yes, very much so, but the problems are self-fulfilling: no infrastructure because not enough riders, not enough riders because bikes are unstylish and expensive, etc. But this also means that improving anything is a step towards improving everything.
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