Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#21

Post by chrisseaton » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 1:30 AM UTC

michaelhoffman wrote: post #20

chrisseaton wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors I think when you gain a fellowship or professorship in academia it does suddenly get a lot more relaxed and you get time and space to do what you want - which is the goal these postdocs are working towards.

This is not at all the case in the fields I work in. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather be a professor than a postdoc but it is way, way more stressful.

As a professor isn't your chair funded and guaranteed? What are you stressing about? Retaining the chair?

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#22

Post by marta_morena_9 » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 1:31 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #18

flobosg wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course one can do that and it’s probably the most reasonable strategy (as opposed to another postdoc, for example). But then, what was the point of the postdoc? I’d rather move earlier into industry. It’s ultimately a gamble.

> But then what was the point of the postdoc? To continue to develop as a researcher and build up your research skills, publication portfolio, and network, ready to move into industry. If you do an ok PhD you could spend a couple of years as a postdoc refining that research and building on your foundation to really making a name for yourself and then apply to industry at your peak into a senior position.

Into a senior position straight from university? That's going to be interesting.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#23

Post by chrisseaton » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 1:32 AM UTC

marta_morena_9 wrote: post #22

chrisseaton wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But then what was the point of the postdoc? To continue to develop as a researcher and build up your research skills, publication portfolio, and network, ready to move into industry. If you do an ok PhD you could spend a couple of years as a postdoc refining that research and building on your foundation to really making a name for yourself and then apply to industry at your peak into a senior position.

Into a senior position straight from university? That's going to be interesting.

That's pretty normal for hiring PhDs in my practical experience. My first job was 'senior' and it's the same for everyone else I can think of. You are senior - you've been part of the community for around four years by that point and by graduation you're probably part of several committees and starting to mentor others. Why isn't that 'senior'?

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#24

Post by sudosteph » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 1:32 AM UTC

ebg13 wrote: post #2

Postgraduate student depression and suicidality is at horrifying proportions. The universities don't care. No one cares. Academia is super fucked and super fucked up, and it just keeps marching onward with blindfold on and fingers in ears, yelling "LA LA LA LA" as loud as possible. Academic positions are basically gone. Whatever didn't vanish completely after the 2009 recession is definitely gone now. Universities co…

On a personal level, I feel empathy for you and your struggling peers. You should not hate your life that severely, no matter what your line of work is. And it's not right to be lied to by people who should be looking for out for you.

But to be honest - as someone who was born and raised working class and has a perspective colored by that - I can't for the life of me understand why you do this to yourself. Why don't you quit and learn a skill that's actually in demand? Is it just sunk-cost fallacy? Or do you feel that hard work and some degree of intelligence entitles you to a career that's meaningful, respectable, ethical, and well-paid - regardless of it's value and demand as determined by the rest of the world?

It's hard to say, but either your position is more valuable than you're getting paid for - which means you all need to unionize, or it's not actually that valuable and you need to quit. Or maybe it's worth exactly what you're getting paid, because so many others will line up right behind you, and take those terrible odds because they like the environment / self-pride / respectability they get from working in academia.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#25

Post by dzolob » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 1:34 AM UTC

bransonf wrote: post #6

Serious question: Why don’t they leave? I’m not saying that they should, or that conditions shouldn’t improve, but if academia is that stressful to you, why stick with it? The only potential outcomes sticking with it are that you will fail later on, or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors.

Why do people stay in abusive relationships?

Why do people keep falling into unhealthy habits?

It’s very humane to be trapped around our own mental/emotional constructions, and getting out of them is very very hard. It happens all the time and it happens at every level.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#26

Post by quickthrower2 » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 1:37 AM UTC

bransonf wrote: post #6

Serious question: Why don’t they leave? I’m not saying that they should, or that conditions shouldn’t improve, but if academia is that stressful to you, why stick with it? The only potential outcomes sticking with it are that you will fail later on, or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors.

A simple change of career? Not so simple (as a software developer how do I just leave? It might actually be hard to get menial work as I’d need a cv for that)

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#27

Post by qmmmur » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 1:39 AM UTC

bransonf wrote: post #6

Serious question: Why don’t they leave? I’m not saying that they should, or that conditions shouldn’t improve, but if academia is that stressful to you, why stick with it? The only potential outcomes sticking with it are that you will fail later on, or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors.

Because you invest years of your life into a field and the aspects that are encouraging you to quit are often imposed by skill-less administrators.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#28

Post by treeman79 » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 1:40 AM UTC

ebg13 wrote: post #2

Postgraduate student depression and suicidality is at horrifying proportions. The universities don't care. No one cares. Academia is super fucked and super fucked up, and it just keeps marching onward with blindfold on and fingers in ears, yelling "LA LA LA LA" as loud as possible. Academic positions are basically gone. Whatever didn't vanish completely after the 2009 recession is definitely gone now. Universities co…

In various art groups there are always the people that want to spend 100-200k on an art Degree, or have and now sell coffee.

I try and give the advice that for most artist, you need to treat it as a hobby. Actual income needs to come from elsewhere.

It’s weird that science is becoming the same same thing. Many are better off as hobby scientists.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#29

Post by quickthrower2 » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 1:41 AM UTC

ebg13 wrote: post #2

Postgraduate student depression and suicidality is at horrifying proportions. The universities don't care. No one cares. Academia is super fucked and super fucked up, and it just keeps marching onward with blindfold on and fingers in ears, yelling "LA LA LA LA" as loud as possible. Academic positions are basically gone. Whatever didn't vanish completely after the 2009 recession is definitely gone now. Universities co…

> I can't think of any other area where it's the _norm_ to need a support group to not quit or kill yourself because a fortress of gold has gaslit you into a deathmarch toward a tiny-fraction-of-a-percent chance of success.

Early startups?

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#30

Post by analog31 » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 1:41 AM UTC

bransonf wrote: post #6

Serious question: Why don’t they leave? I’m not saying that they should, or that conditions shouldn’t improve, but if academia is that stressful to you, why stick with it? The only potential outcomes sticking with it are that you will fail later on, or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors.

A couple of things. Once you leave, you're not going back. So it's a profound decision with a big unknown on the other side. Your publication output drops to zero. You won't have time to develop your own program. You won't keep up with the literature. (Maybe you're not doing those things already, in which case you should try to jump ship).

Maybe you're an academic spouse, in which case you're probably living in an area that's already crowded with like minded PhDs.

Maybe it's not really all that much better on the outside. Depending on your field of course. Even as a grad student, I noticed that acceptance into grad school doesn't necessarily select for the traits that are needed in a research or R&D leadership role, such as being outgoing, self confident, and competitive.

Disclosure: Physics PhD, graduated early 90's, went straight to industry, never looked back.