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A Computer Culture for Children [video]

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Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#21

Post by indigochill »

tsumnia wrote: post #16
mhd wrote: post #5

It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. For a while we had some interesting candidates, like Processing, Rebol, or how _why presented Ruby, and even Tcl and Python seemed more all-encompassing. These days it seems every programming language development is going again for "professionals" -- Typescript, Rust, Go, e…

I would disagree - Alice[1], Scratch[2], and Snap![3] are all attempts to be beginner friendly; that is the entire area of block based programming. There are also attempts via Python with websites like CodeCombat[4]. However, I would say the issue is there is no "transition" to "real" programming languages. No one builds a Red-Black tree in block based programming and there is still an unrecognized issue about how "e…

> In my opinion, where the issue stands currently is that older languages like BASIC made the visual creation aspect of coding super easy.

This is why I think fantasy consoles like the TIC-80 and PICO-8 are actually valuable educational tools. They still represent a BASIC-like syntax and quick development/play environment for a tiny fraction of what it would cost to buy a Commodore 64 or ZX Spectrum (never mind the convenience of running them on your desktop).

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#22

Post by whoomp12342 »

tsumnia wrote: post #16
mhd wrote: post #5

It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. For a while we had some interesting candidates, like Processing, Rebol, or how _why presented Ruby, and even Tcl and Python seemed more all-encompassing. These days it seems every programming language development is going again for "professionals" -- Typescript, Rust, Go, e…

I would disagree - Alice[1], Scratch[2], and Snap![3] are all attempts to be beginner friendly; that is the entire area of block based programming. There are also attempts via Python with websites like CodeCombat[4]. However, I would say the issue is there is no "transition" to "real" programming languages. No one builds a Red-Black tree in block based programming and there is still an unrecognized issue about how "e…

Maybe I'm biased and jaded, but I find alice scratch and snap MUCH harder to use than just coding.

I think the fallacy is that because its bright and pretty and cartoony makes it easier to use. Sure it is more attractive to the youth but when they actually want to build something in their mind they are met with disappointment due to its limitations.

How can we make this more positive?

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#23

Post by mikepurvis »

jcelerier wrote: post #17
wslh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But wrapping their head around algebra and trigonometry and making them conceptually "think" about them was extremely hard. You should abstract these concepts in some way. For example, when you are moving an object in 3D you don't need to spend time projecting 3D objects into a 2D display using linear algebra. You just set the x,y,z coordinates and the engine does the hard work.

> For example, when you are moving an object in 3D you don't need to spend time projecting 3D objects into a 2D display using linear algebra. You just set the x,y,z coordinates and the engine does the hard work. but setting x,y,z coordinates so that they do the kind of motion that you want is exactly where you need linear algebra. Say you want to make a ball move in a spiral motion, how do you do that, from code, wit…

As a young kid doing qbasic, everything moving around on the screen was x/y/xchng/ychng. The watershed moment for me was in highschool and suddenly recognizing that sin/cos were how to get from polar to cartesian, and atan2 was how to go the other direction. A week later my little platforming arena shooter had heat-seeking missiles in it.

I think a big part of the problem is a failure to emphasize the right stuff. I always see trigonometry presented in terms of all six functions and arcfunctions and the relationships between them— this is a bunch of abstract stuff that most people don't care about and will never need; it's nuts to present all of this at once when the small piece of it needed for polar coordinate operations is so immediately and obviously useful.

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#24

Post by an_opabinia »

mhd wrote: post #5

It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. For a while we had some interesting candidates, like Processing, Rebol, or how _why presented Ruby, and even Tcl and Python seemed more all-encompassing. These days it seems every programming language development is going again for "professionals" -- Typescript, Rust, Go, e…

> programming language development is going again for "professionals"

Processing is the trust fund kid of programming languages. It is the epitome of the aesthetics of programming. It is literally purpose built for idiosyncratic graphics applications. It was hatched in the crucible of trust funded computing. It cannot, and will never be used, for meaningful software.

Every kid should be learning Python.

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#25

Post by codeulike »

tsumnia wrote: post #16
mhd wrote: post #5

It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. For a while we had some interesting candidates, like Processing, Rebol, or how _why presented Ruby, and even Tcl and Python seemed more all-encompassing. These days it seems every programming language development is going again for "professionals" -- Typescript, Rust, Go, e…

I would disagree - Alice[1], Scratch[2], and Snap![3] are all attempts to be beginner friendly; that is the entire area of block based programming. There are also attempts via Python with websites like CodeCombat[4]. However, I would say the issue is there is no "transition" to "real" programming languages. No one builds a Red-Black tree in block based programming and there is still an unrecognized issue about how "e…

What made writing games in BASIC fun 30 years ago was that amateur graphics weren't much different to professional graphics. But in 2020 the difference between amateur and professional graphics is huge and it's discouraging. So as others have said, things like Pico8 really help fill that gap.

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#26

Post by tsumnia »

whoomp12342 wrote: post #22
tsumnia wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would disagree - Alice[1], Scratch[2], and Snap![3] are all attempts to be beginner friendly; that is the entire area of block based programming. There are also attempts via Python with websites like CodeCombat[4]. However, I would say the issue is there is no "transition" to "real" programming languages. No one builds a Red-Black tree in block based programming and there is still an unrecognized issue about how "e…

Maybe I'm biased and jaded, but I find alice scratch and snap MUCH harder to use than just coding. I think the fallacy is that because its bright and pretty and cartoony makes it easier to use. Sure it is more attractive to the youth but when they actually want to build something in their mind they are met with disappointment due to its limitations. How can we make this more positive?

I do agree and its one of the reasons my current research focuses on type-based languages instead. However, I think the issue is specific to your "when they actually want to build something" line - what does this mean? I agree and think this is where some of my reservations come from, but what exactly are we wanting kids to do with code outside of the structured lesson? Maybe they are doing them, but because its not this magical "everyone converts to coding" switch, we aren't seeing it.

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#27

Post by 9214 »

mhd wrote: post #5

It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. For a while we had some interesting candidates, like Processing, Rebol, or how _why presented Ruby, and even Tcl and Python seemed more all-encompassing. These days it seems every programming language development is going again for "professionals" -- Typescript, Rust, Go, e…

FYI, Rebol ideas took their root in a historical continuation:

https://www.red-lang.org/p/about.html

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#28

Post by hugs »

leetcrew wrote: post #20
mysterydip wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an idea for a simple language similar to basic but using emojis to represent functions and variables (really putting the "symbolic" in basic), with click or drag n drop from a toolbox rather than pure typing so everything is available at the start. This would be a toy language designed for to introduce the world of programming to those who are learning to read. So for example, ⭕5 would draw a circle of size 5…

your idea (and hugs's) sound a lot like a pictographic version of netlogo's turtle programming. I believe netlogo is open source, so maybe you could just write a frontend that picks a nice subset of the netlogo functions and maps emojis to them?

That's almost where I'm stuck. I was going down a path where Wildcard would "simply" transpile to JavaScript and inherit JS semantics... But yeah, it's so close to Logo, I couldn't decide if I should transpile to Logo instead.
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