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Moths draped in stealth acoustic cloak evade bat sonar

chemistryworld.com

21–30 of 34 posts

Re: Moths draped in stealth acoustic cloak evade bat sonar

#21
post #10

The Hawk moth has evolved to emit ultrasonic clicks that jam the bat sonar: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/01/moths-avoid-capture-... Just more examples of the power of evolution.

that's what I though of:

https://steveblank.com/2009/03/23/if-i-told-you-i%E2%80%99d-...

Re: Moths draped in stealth acoustic cloak evade bat sonar

#22
post #20

I know nothing about this kind of metamaterials [0] but would it be possible to replicate them at an industrial scale? For things such as superior acoustic insulation and so on? [0] https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/11/17/2014531117

My completely uneducated guess is that this is probably similar in approach to ‘Vantablack’, in that you'll have to orient the scales a certain way relative to each other and the base. So they'll need to be likewise ‘grown’ on the surface, in a slow and very expensive process. (Though apparently there are VB variants as spray paint, presumably with lower absorption.) Of course, this is after someone even figures out how to make such scales and slap them together on the base.

This pavillion is the largest object on which VB was used to my knowledge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxkvKJmlyHQ

However, it's hard to imagine VB being grown on it instead of sprayed, and the next-largest candidate seems to be the BMW X6.

Re: Moths draped in stealth acoustic cloak evade bat sonar

#23
post #2

> Holderied says it could be possible to make materials ‘10 times more efficient at absorbing sounds than what we are using in our homes and offices’. Think sound-absorbing wallpaper, not panels, he adds. I would love to have something like that. All these open floor plan offices and open concept homes are loud AF.

To use in construction one must have to answer some very difficult questions like how well does the material survive dust and the cleaning process? How long does it last by itself? How does it interact with the other constraints like fire resistance, allergies, etc?

And after all that, filtering low frequencies is still a hopeless task.

Re: Moths draped in stealth acoustic cloak evade bat sonar

#24

Would be nice to understand how natural selection lead to this material and what were the steps. First you had a moth with some fur that absorbed maybe 0.1% ultrasound and then it started to increase from there generation and generation?

A single moth had a mutation that made it wings ever so slightly scaled in a way the absorbed a tiny fraction of bat sonar. This allowed it to reproduce slightly more than the rest of the population, so its mutation was reinforced.

Re: Moths draped in stealth acoustic cloak evade bat sonar

#25

Would be nice to understand how natural selection lead to this material and what were the steps. First you had a moth with some fur that absorbed maybe 0.1% ultrasound and then it started to increase from there generation and generation?

Well the ones that didn’t do this got eaten by bats, it’s very easy to see how survival of the fittest works CB in this case. Designing an eye with evolution seems somewhat harder...

>Designing an eye with evolution seems somewhat harder...

It's absolutely trivial. You just start with light sensitive skin. Then evolve a cavity to create a pinhole lens and then finally fill the hole with a lens. Making the eyeball move is optional but shouldn't be too tricky.

Re: Moths draped in stealth acoustic cloak evade bat sonar

#26

Would be nice to understand how natural selection lead to this material and what were the steps. First you had a moth with some fur that absorbed maybe 0.1% ultrasound and then it started to increase from there generation and generation?

I wonder if some of these processes might start out with a kind of genetic anti-resiliency that's selected for. Moths seem to have a wide variety of wing patterns and heavily rely on them for camouflage and mimicry (like when eyes are mimicked). Maybe the genes related to wing surfaces reduced in number over time, making wings more sensitive to mutation and variation. Kind of like increasing the wing learning rate at…

I love that you wrote this. I wrote a very similar whitepaper about meta-evolution (evolving methods to propose better mutations) a few months ago: https://lemiant.github.io/PhilosophyCircle/papers/evolution_...

Re: Moths draped in stealth acoustic cloak evade bat sonar

#27

Would be nice to understand how natural selection lead to this material and what were the steps. First you had a moth with some fur that absorbed maybe 0.1% ultrasound and then it started to increase from there generation and generation?

With our current understating of placing all specialization on mutation and natural selection, it requires the unsaid of millions of useless iterations and dead moths and starving bats.

Re: Moths draped in stealth acoustic cloak evade bat sonar

#28
post #2

> Holderied says it could be possible to make materials ‘10 times more efficient at absorbing sounds than what we are using in our homes and offices’. Think sound-absorbing wallpaper, not panels, he adds. I would love to have something like that. All these open floor plan offices and open concept homes are loud AF.

To use in construction one must have to answer some very difficult questions like how well does the material survive dust and the cleaning process? How long does it last by itself? How does it interact with the other constraints like fire resistance, allergies, etc? And after all that, filtering low frequencies is still a hopeless task.

Not to mention flammability of the material.

Re: Moths draped in stealth acoustic cloak evade bat sonar

#29
post #2

> Holderied says it could be possible to make materials ‘10 times more efficient at absorbing sounds than what we are using in our homes and offices’. Think sound-absorbing wallpaper, not panels, he adds. I would love to have something like that. All these open floor plan offices and open concept homes are loud AF.

One does have to consider the frequency, I’m assuming dampening high frequency sound is easier than low frequency.

As someone who's lived under an inconsiderate asshole who would play loud bass heavy music at 2-3am. Yes, low frequency sounds are much harder to dampen. Especially when they shake your roof and walls.

Re: Moths draped in stealth acoustic cloak evade bat sonar

#30
post #2

> Holderied says it could be possible to make materials ‘10 times more efficient at absorbing sounds than what we are using in our homes and offices’. Think sound-absorbing wallpaper, not panels, he adds. I would love to have something like that. All these open floor plan offices and open concept homes are loud AF.

After listening to best softies of the 80s for 3 hours from my neighbors walls, yes please.

I also play guitar so to have a “jam box” would be great. Like a vocal box where you’re isolated but for really REALLY loud guitars.

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