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Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#21

Post by guram11 »

trianglem wrote: post #15
meddlepal wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I do think the needed response to fully control the spread of a virus creates perverse incentives for governments. Especially governments that would like to disrupt other countries which have cultures that don't like to be told what to do by their own government. China, Russia and every other country has been given a wonderful blueprint for absolutely disrupting the US and really entire western order. The fact…

I don’t see it. What is the blueprint? Release a deadly virus? I think we have always known how bad that would be and there are international laws against it.

the international laws can't contain a virus outbreak, people still get murdered by guns when there's laws against using guns, the scale of the damage to economy and security to enemy nation has made this too lucrative to pass for any strategist

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#22

Post by dehrmann »

tylerjwilk00 wrote: post #19
jameslk wrote: post #9

I don't usually go off on the deep end with conspiracies, and I don't believe COVID-19 was intentionally spread, but I do think the needed response to fully control the spread of a virus creates perverse incentives for governments. Especially governments that would like to disrupt other countries which have cultures that don't like to be told what to do by their own government. COVID-19 didn't cause such trouble, but…

"Never let a good crisis go to waste” ~ Winston Churchill

It definitely looks like China took advantage of Covid lockdowns to strengthen its hold on Hong Kong.

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#23

Post by roenxi »

meddlepal wrote: post #11
jameslk wrote: post #9

I don't usually go off on the deep end with conspiracies, and I don't believe COVID-19 was intentionally spread, but I do think the needed response to fully control the spread of a virus creates perverse incentives for governments. Especially governments that would like to disrupt other countries which have cultures that don't like to be told what to do by their own government. COVID-19 didn't cause such trouble, but…

> but I do think the needed response to fully control the spread of a virus creates perverse incentives for governments. Especially governments that would like to disrupt other countries which have cultures that don't like to be told what to do by their own government. China, Russia and every other country has been given a wonderful blueprint for absolutely disrupting the US and really entire western order. The fact…

> China, Russia and every other country has been given a wonderful blueprint for absolutely disrupting the US and really entire western order.

Probably not. Notice something interesting about COVID - countries that were scared of SARS did fine, countries that weren't scared of SARS suffered.

If you chart out the response to COVID in the West it is probably something like disease growing exponentially, response growing linearly. The mobilisation of resources over the last 11 months has been staggering. If another virus appeared now it would get demolished because everyone is already on high alert. The regulatory paths for emergency tests would be exercised recently, and it seems likely that the stupid issue where the US government basically banned private testing in the first month of the response is resolved.

If it is contained early, COVID is experienced quite differently to if it is allowed to become endemic. Really, if we replayed this pandemic but people understood the risk of air travel w.r.t. disease it would go completely differently. It'll be decades before people relax again.

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#24

Post by im3w1l »

roenxi wrote: post #23
meddlepal wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I do think the needed response to fully control the spread of a virus creates perverse incentives for governments. Especially governments that would like to disrupt other countries which have cultures that don't like to be told what to do by their own government. China, Russia and every other country has been given a wonderful blueprint for absolutely disrupting the US and really entire western order. The fact…

> China, Russia and every other country has been given a wonderful blueprint for absolutely disrupting the US and really entire western order. Probably not. Notice something interesting about COVID - countries that were scared of SARS did fine, countries that weren't scared of SARS suffered. If you chart out the response to COVID in the West it is probably something like disease growing exponentially, response growin…

What I've learned is the game theory of this. Isolating early just means you are lonely longer, because many will defect and air travel and live it up, until the flights stop going.

If the government doesn't take decisive action early, then I will chose camp defector rather than camp sucker.

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#25

Post by zaroth »

chewzerita wrote: post #10

The idea of a "big government" is a spook. In my country, "big government" is a bad word meaning taxes on corporations, any sort of industry regulation and breaking up monopolies. When I think of "big government", I imagine a militarized police force, lack of access to medical care, pervasive surveillance, unchecked imperialism, billionaires writing their own rules and to tie a bow on the top: a propaganda wing to ma…

I think a few of your boogeyman are out of date.

The militarized police force was bested by a couple hundred anarchists and no charges even filed.

The lack of access to medical care just spent $6 billion buy vaccines for everyone in the country.

The unchecked imperialism just drew down all their troops and is achieving real progress towards normalized peaceful relations.

A few of the others are quite on point though.

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#27

Post by frogpelt »

jameslk wrote: post #9

I don't usually go off on the deep end with conspiracies, and I don't believe COVID-19 was intentionally spread, but I do think the needed response to fully control the spread of a virus creates perverse incentives for governments. Especially governments that would like to disrupt other countries which have cultures that don't like to be told what to do by their own government. COVID-19 didn't cause such trouble, but…

I think if that were to happen it would require a secret virus that there is already a vaccine for that could be used by the chosen few to protect themselves.

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#28

Post by porpoise »

x87678r wrote: post #14
jameslk wrote: post #9

I don't usually go off on the deep end with conspiracies, and I don't believe COVID-19 was intentionally spread, but I do think the needed response to fully control the spread of a virus creates perverse incentives for governments. Especially governments that would like to disrupt other countries which have cultures that don't like to be told what to do by their own government. COVID-19 didn't cause such trouble, but…

Its interesting to me when Chinese govt told everyone in Jan/Feb they have the virus under control, much of the world relaxed, but its neighbours Korea/Vietnam/Taiwan/Japan all knew to ramp up response and not believe them.

What do you have in mind by "telling everyone they have the virus under control"? I don't recall any such communication from China.

If you mean the cover-up or data fudging accusations, I highly recommend the four part series in Quillette that examines the merit of these charges. It's very long, however.

https://quillette.com/category/covid-19/china-syndrome-serie...

Here's the Twitter thread where the author introduced the series and gave some helpful backgrounds:

https://twitter.com/phl43/status/1298053847844368386

As he says:

"Again, I know that many of you are skeptical, but this essay has required a ridiculous amount of work and I'm really confident about the conclusions I reach, so I hope you will read it with an open-mind. I will post the other parts in this thread as they are published."

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#29

Post by IronRanger »

eunos wrote: post #2

The 1918 flu pandemic along with the end of World War I, introduced the roaring 20s, a period of economic prosperity, a new cultural idea and in some sense decadence. Will the idea of big spending government also delivers the same outcome? If yes, how do we manage those so that we will not arrive at the great depression of 1929?

This might have been the case if the original Imperial College reports of several million deaths in the US and UK were accurate, highly concentrated among the aged which would have lead to large savings on healthcare and pension costs, as well as freeing up of large amounts of real estate for younger generations.

However in reality the deathtoll from COVID is scarcely distinguishable from regular influenza seasons. Only 0.06% of Sweden's population succumbed to COVID and their annual deaths are shaping up to be the same as prior years, for example. Similar situation in Germany.

Re: Covid pushes Asia to embrace big government

#30

Post by yongjik »

As a South Korean, I'm not sure covid has much to do with acceptance of "big government." Unlike most of the West, many Asians have lived under real dictators - some still do. We know what a dictatorship looks like, and we know how terrible your life can be when the government abandons its duty to protect people.

To put it other way, "Your government shouldn't have enough power to fight an epidemic, because that's too much power" has never been an actual argument in Korea, and (I believe) most of Asia as well. We don't want a small, underpowered government. We want a properly supervised government that uses its power to protect people.

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