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A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

medievalists.net

21–30 of 40 posts

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#21

Damn, that's an unreadable page. I've got ads (or white space if using ad blockers ) the height of my whole phone screen,a cookie banner that blurs the background, a close button following me around and discracting me with the filing animation, a static button for the smartphone view (that's exactly the same?), A footer that appears if I scroll up and from that point on stays in place... What else could they do to ac…

Interesting. I’m on iOS in the US and saw none of that except a banner at the bottom. Is this directed advertising or is there some other reason it’s not the same for me.

I'm in the EU, but other than that I was using pretty much the same (safari on ios, iphone 12, with a content blocker )

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#22
post #12

My point to add is that Fairy tales are not always (maybe not often?) children friendly by modern standards. Same as modern day "cartoons". They can have quite graphic content. My wife and I were reading from a "Trove of childrens songs, fairy tales etc" to our newborn, to get in the practice of reading to our child. Simple rhyming stuff, 3 blind mice, the luminous dong, tom thumb, jack and the beanstalk. It was gett…

Grimm's Fairy Tales are already watered downed versions of the originals, edited for the benefit of softer 19th century sensibilities. Darker material gives stories gravitas as well as putting the moral lessons in starker, simpler terms. If you don't follow instructions, or exhibit some antisocial behavior, you're not just "punished", you're slaughtered. Little Red Riding Hood strayed from the path and was eaten aliv…

[deleted]

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#23

My point to add is that Fairy tales are not always (maybe not often?) children friendly by modern standards. Same as modern day "cartoons". They can have quite graphic content. My wife and I were reading from a "Trove of childrens songs, fairy tales etc" to our newborn, to get in the practice of reading to our child. Simple rhyming stuff, 3 blind mice, the luminous dong, tom thumb, jack and the beanstalk. It was gett…

The world is a harsh place.

If you raise children in a bubble of safety and only throw them out into the real world at adulthood, they have many problems.

Scary stories are a safe way to introduce developing humans to the realities of the world so they are prepared for them.

Biologically it is the likely source of a lot of mental illness. Basically your brain tunes itself towards the expectations set in its early environment, if the adult environment is quite a lot different than the childhood one, the feedback systems tuned to keep things on the level can’t cope with the foreign environment and you get mental illness.

It wasn’t so long ago that wandering off into the forest would likely get you murdered or worse.

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#24
post #12

My point to add is that Fairy tales are not always (maybe not often?) children friendly by modern standards. Same as modern day "cartoons". They can have quite graphic content. My wife and I were reading from a "Trove of childrens songs, fairy tales etc" to our newborn, to get in the practice of reading to our child. Simple rhyming stuff, 3 blind mice, the luminous dong, tom thumb, jack and the beanstalk. It was gett…

Grimm's Fairy Tales are already watered downed versions of the originals, edited for the benefit of softer 19th century sensibilities. Darker material gives stories gravitas as well as putting the moral lessons in starker, simpler terms. If you don't follow instructions, or exhibit some antisocial behavior, you're not just "punished", you're slaughtered. Little Red Riding Hood strayed from the path and was eaten aliv…

I don't know where you're coming from, but having read some things on my own (e.g. some myths, apocalyptic literature, books on medieval necromancy) I just don't see what is there to be "darker" in Grimm's Tales. The representation of violence in them seems to be like the same as it ever was before and if they don't all happen to be senselessly violent, it's because in there you'll find everything between Aesop, medieval romance and some absolutely mad tales.

What would, in my opinion, be an effect of 19th century sensibilities, of Romantic, Gothic and Wagnerian sensibilities, would be the attribution of any sort of gravitas to the original material. I think the violence is not even supposed to shock, scare or be believable. It is supposed to be ridiculous: the tone of story will shift in a single page into some ridiculous over-the-top violence and then go back to normal as if nothing happened. The attitude towards violence is pretty much the same as in that of Monty Python and The Holy Grail.

About children not caring about fairy tales: I don't think it's that unusual, though I don't think it has got anything to do with either children or fairy tales. A minority of people hugely enjoy something and it's because of them that the everyone else enjoys it, because they manage to make it sound fun by constantly playing with it. People don't just happen to aggregate, collate and modify folklore to the benefit of folklorists. They do it because they happen to be the main audience for folk tales. Because they are constantly alternating between telling and hearing them, even in their old age, they get good at it.

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#25
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grimm's Fairy Tales are already watered downed versions of the originals, edited for the benefit of softer 19th century sensibilities. Darker material gives stories gravitas as well as putting the moral lessons in starker, simpler terms. If you don't follow instructions, or exhibit some antisocial behavior, you're not just "punished", you're slaughtered. Little Red Riding Hood strayed from the path and was eaten aliv…

> we live in a ridiculously violent culture I am rather shocked at this sentiment. We live in an incredibly peaceful culture, in historical context. For example, people used to be hung in the town square. Burned alive for entertainment. People would wander around town with a sword, picking fights to the death, and it was legal. I once asked my dad why punishments for people who conspired against the king were so publ…

The U.S. is exceptionally violent as compared to most other developed countries. There are many contributors to the origins of that culture--frontier mentality, slave suppression, etc--but what's left today is the violence. In middle-class society that tendency toward violence is kept in check by other cultural norms and, arguably, redirected in various ways, such as a harshly punitive penal system, suppression of underclasses, etc. But among the American working class and, especially, the poor, that violence manifests in very direct, brutal ways. My step brother travels the country working at refineries, which tend to be located in impoverished areas, and just the other day we were discussing some of the things he's seen around the country--knife fights, gun fights, and countless bar fights. My dad has more than his fair share of scars from when he traveled from town to town for work. I saw and experienced plenty of things as a child that many Americans, not to mention foreigners from less violent countries, would only expect to see in a movie. All this stuff is mostly hidden from direct view by the middle classes. But if you grew up poor or poor-adjacent, things often look quit different.

In my travels and readings I've found that countries have distinct tendencies toward violence that clearly emanate from their culture, not from objective markers like poverty, income, etc. For example, in the 1990s Ecuador had the lowest homicide rate in the Americas, despite often crushing poverty. In the early 2000s there was a surge of Columbian immigrants in search of work. Columbian culture was far more violent than Ecuador's, much like the U.S. (as opposed to simply a consequence of organized crime), and rates of violence soared. Not because the Columbian immigrants were criminals, but because those who resorted to crime did so in a more violent manner.

But my point wasn't to say that the U.S. is unsafe. Just that what makes a culture (and people) violent isn't superficial behaviors. Guns don't make America violent. America loves guns because we're a violent society. To be clear, we love guns not because we feel we have to defend ourselves, but we because we fetishize the idea of defending ourselves amidst our own violence. Take away the guns and homicides might drop, but the tendency toward violence will simply remain latent, and all the other manifestations of that culture of violence will remain. It doesn't mean we can't become a safer, better society. We have and we are. We'll just follow a different, often trailing path as compared to less violent societies.

If we want our kids to internalize a different set of norms and expectations, it's these subtle cues that we have to watch for, not the artifice. Kids can see through artifice, at least to the extent they haven't internalized the norms the artifice reflects or disguises. They don't need to be protected from video games or gun culture or gore; they need to be taught to recognize our society's preference for conflict over cooperation, for winner-take-all strategies, rather than to let it seep in quietly. Those cues are subtle and pervasive and to some extent exist even within, e.g., Disney's otherwise saccharine world. For example, Disney's woke culture messaging (as well meaning and useful as it is) reflects the narrative of two groups pitted against each other, one right and one wrong, where the latter either needs to be vanquished or converted. Unlike in traditional fairy tales, in American narratives the boogeyman is your nextdoor neighbor, not a troll or a witch. We think we're sending sophisticated, moral, good messages, and we are, but it's not all we're sending.

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#26
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we live in a ridiculously violent culture I am rather shocked at this sentiment. We live in an incredibly peaceful culture, in historical context. For example, people used to be hung in the town square. Burned alive for entertainment. People would wander around town with a sword, picking fights to the death, and it was legal. I once asked my dad why punishments for people who conspired against the king were so publ…

The U.S. is exceptionally violent as compared to most other developed countries. There are many contributors to the origins of that culture--frontier mentality, slave suppression, etc--but what's left today is the violence. In middle-class society that tendency toward violence is kept in check by other cultural norms and, arguably, redirected in various ways, such as a harshly punitive penal system, suppression of un…

> But my point wasn't to say that the U.S. is unsafe.

But when you say the US is "exceptionally violent" that is indeed what you're saying.

> they need to be taught to recognize our society's preference for conflict over cooperation, for winner-take-all strategies,

Oh come on. This just reads like selection bias. Just drive to work some day, and look at all the cars cooperating so the traffic smoothly flows. They go to work, and cooperate with the people at the workplace, cooperate with their suppliers, cooperate with their customers, and pretty much everyone they interact with all day, every day.

The winner-take-all mentality is in organized sports, which are specifically designed for that, and those are in every country. (And even then the teams have to cooperate with each other, and cooperate with other teams on rules and schedules.) But not much in other activities. Humans would all literally die in short order if we don't cooperate.

Thought I'd throw in this thought:

Free markets are based on voluntary cooperation. Socialism is based on forced cooperation. I can't even think of a functioning system based on non-cooperation.

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#27
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. is exceptionally violent as compared to most other developed countries. There are many contributors to the origins of that culture--frontier mentality, slave suppression, etc--but what's left today is the violence. In middle-class society that tendency toward violence is kept in check by other cultural norms and, arguably, redirected in various ways, such as a harshly punitive penal system, suppression of un…

> But my point wasn't to say that the U.S. is unsafe. But when you say the US is "exceptionally violent" that is indeed what you're saying. > they need to be taught to recognize our society's preference for conflict over cooperation, for winner-take-all strategies, Oh come on. This just reads like selection bias. Just drive to work some day, and look at all the cars cooperating so the traffic smoothly flows. They go…

>But when you say the US is "exceptionally violent" that is indeed what you're saying.

Compared to present countries, not the past, the US indeed is exceptionally violent, especially given the wealth in the country.

* Homicide rate is among the highest of all OECD countries, for example: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5?location...

* The US still has legal capital punishment.

* The whole approach to the penal system being very revenge-based, resulting in very high incarceration rates etc.

* The prevalence of sexual violence, e.g. compare the US with Canada: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health...

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. is exceptionally violent as compared to most other developed countries. There are many contributors to the origins of that culture--frontier mentality, slave suppression, etc--but what's left today is the violence. In middle-class society that tendency toward violence is kept in check by other cultural norms and, arguably, redirected in various ways, such as a harshly punitive penal system, suppression of un…

> But my point wasn't to say that the U.S. is unsafe. But when you say the US is "exceptionally violent" that is indeed what you're saying. > they need to be taught to recognize our society's preference for conflict over cooperation, for winner-take-all strategies, Oh come on. This just reads like selection bias. Just drive to work some day, and look at all the cars cooperating so the traffic smoothly flows. They go…

Things aren't binary in real world. When you compare how ie Europe works, the differences are there and in similar vein as highlighted.

American society is brutal in many respects. It is truly winner-take-all and rest be damned, you should have tried harder. Be it medicine (you either can afford it or are screwed - unimaginable for any european country), education (public universities are almost/totally free everywhere), penal system etc.

I find it interesting how US top 1% succeeded to persuade the remaining 99% of the population that this is best system for them, when clearly it isn't. Not if you want the best place for your kid to grow up and be given fairest and best chances and have a good safe life. I guess Hollywood helped, but rather than contemplating some conspiracy it seems to me its more some sort of self-fulfilling myth.

We know class mobility is largely a myth, and US society is deeply divided into classes based on money. And as for violence - its there on more noticeable levels than across the pond.

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#29

Damn, that's an unreadable page. I've got ads (or white space if using ad blockers ) the height of my whole phone screen,a cookie banner that blurs the background, a close button following me around and discracting me with the filing animation, a static button for the smartphone view (that's exactly the same?), A footer that appears if I scroll up and from that point on stays in place... What else could they do to ac…

marquee!

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#30

Damn, that's an unreadable page. I've got ads (or white space if using ad blockers ) the height of my whole phone screen,a cookie banner that blurs the background, a close button following me around and discracting me with the filing animation, a static button for the smartphone view (that's exactly the same?), A footer that appears if I scroll up and from that point on stays in place... What else could they do to ac…

Any time I encounter a page like this (I also got a paywall) I disable Javascript, and if it doesn't help I just leave.
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