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How Apple's Moral Compass Works

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Re: How Apple's Moral Compass Works

#21

Post by thaumaturgy »

TomOfTTB wrote: post #19
ceejayoz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other claims are you capable of using Google? > China only has a .02% suicide rate and most are in the rural areas ( http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-09/11/content_609571... ). That's 1 in every 5 million people killing themselves. While you're suggesting people use Google, you should acquaint yourself with the calculator function. That's 1,000 in every 5 million people killing themselves. http://www.…

Sorry I meant 1,000 there. But my typo doesn't invalidate the point. The total suicide rate includes the elderly, the painfully poor, and so on. Foxconn workers by virtue of having a job at all are in the higher ranks of society. They shouldn't be at a rate that's over 50% of the total suicide rate. (Also note instead of improving the conditions they put out Suicide nets which is bound to bring their numbers down)

> They shouldn't be at a rate that's over 50% of the total suicide rate.

Why not?

I'm not familiar with Chinese culture -- can you explain why working at a factory should drop a person's odds of suicide to an arbitrary number less than 50% of the national average?

Re: How Apple's Moral Compass Works

#22

Post by michaelpinto »

I the iPad as a videogame platform — that means their peers are really Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft with the Xbox. But unlike the later two Apple is really going for the home market, i.e. marketing to a family (just like Disney).

With that in mind Apple is really closer to being Nintendo than anything else — so if you think in those terms they're in fact very open with what they allow into their store. Also I've never known Apple to tout the idea that "we're open" or even that "we do no evil". So I think in that way they're a bit more honest.

Re: How Apple's Moral Compass Works

#23

Post by TomOfTTB »

kloncks wrote: post #17
TomOfTTB wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would this be the same CEO that would fire people if they couldn't justify their job in an elevator ride? Or the Steve Jobs who denied his daughter's existence until it was painfully clear she was his (going so far as to force her mother onto welfare because he refused to support her)? Or are you talking about the Steve Jobs who paid lip service to improving conditions at Foxconn while not forcing them to improve any…

C'mon. Young people make mistakes. Young suddenly-rich successful people will often make bad decisions. Hating on Steve Jobs for something he has done previously when he was young and stupid makes as much sense as hating on Mark Zuckerburg as a 19-year-old calling Facebook users "dumb fucks". But no. You're right. I'm sure the CEOs who have no vision or rigid beliefs are better. I'm sure that those that will change a…

Moral rarity how. What has he done that has been so moral exactly? Other than banning porn (which isn't inherently moral) I can't think of anything.

Second there is a big difference between calling people "dumb f*cks" and forcing your child and her mother into poverty because you refuse to pay (even though you easily could because you're rich).

Re: How Apple's Moral Compass Works

#24

Post by TomOfTTB »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #21
TomOfTTB wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry I meant 1,000 there. But my typo doesn't invalidate the point. The total suicide rate includes the elderly, the painfully poor, and so on. Foxconn workers by virtue of having a job at all are in the higher ranks of society. They shouldn't be at a rate that's over 50% of the total suicide rate. (Also note instead of improving the conditions they put out Suicide nets which is bound to bring their numbers down)

> They shouldn't be at a rate that's over 50% of the total suicide rate. Why not? I'm not familiar with Chinese culture -- can you explain why working at a factory should drop a person's odds of suicide to an arbitrary number less than 50% of the national average?

Because having a job at Foxconn is the equivalent of being rich there. You have air conditioning and in door plumbing. Foxconn workers make 2,000 renminbi (after Foxconn doubled their salary to stop the suicides). That's 3 times what a normal person with a job in makes in China.

This would be like a cluster of Facebook or Google employees committing suicide in the U.S.

Re: How Apple's Moral Compass Works

#25

Post by seabee »

TomOfTTB wrote: post #15
thaumaturgy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of a bummer that you included the Foxconn example, considering that there have been several articles pointing out that Foxconn is huge and, statistically speaking, they have a lower suicide rate than the national average. In other words, working at Foxconn makes you less likely to commit suicide! That example kind of casts doubt on the others, which I hadn't heard of before (but wouldn't be surprised by, ei…

On the other claims are you capable of using Google? If you had the time to post this you should have the time to verify the data for your own piece of mind. As far as Foxconn the company is huge but 30 suicide attempts in 3 weeks is not normal ( http://gizmodo.com/#!5540045/foxconn-suicide-cluster-claims-... ). China only has a .02% suicide rate and most are in the rural areas ( http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/20…

Your facts don't support your assertions.

Population of China (2007): 1,321,851,888 (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004391.html)

Suicide rate determined in 2007: "more than 287,000 people end their own lives every year" (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-09/11/content_609571...)

Suicide rate per 100,000 per year: 21.7

Statistically expected suicides at Foxconn per year: 206

Actual suicides in 2010: 14 (http://topics.scmp.com/news/china-news-watch/article/Struggl...) with at least 30 attempts (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/malcolmmoore/100039883/wha...) (the articles contradict themselves in the number of attempts)

You are assuming the suicide cluster is a continuing trend rather than a short-term incident. Statistics does not work that way, things are not neat and orderly and you can't extrapolate like that. Besides, suicide clusters are a known phenomenon (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7205141.stm).

Also bear in mind that other sources place China's suicide rate much lower by a factor of as much as 4 (but Foxconn's suicide rate would still be lower than the average).

Is it something to be concerned about? Of course. But it's not at the dark-forces-at-work stage. All you are witnessing is how sausages (or cheap Chinese-manufactured goods) are made; witnessing it is uncomfortable but how often does it turn someone vegetarian?

Re: How Apple's Moral Compass Works

#26

Post by glhaynes »

TomOfTTB wrote: post #24
thaumaturgy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They shouldn't be at a rate that's over 50% of the total suicide rate. Why not? I'm not familiar with Chinese culture -- can you explain why working at a factory should drop a person's odds of suicide to an arbitrary number less than 50% of the national average?

Because having a job at Foxconn is the equivalent of being rich there. You have air conditioning and in door plumbing. Foxconn workers make 2,000 renminbi (after Foxconn doubled their salary to stop the suicides). That's 3 times what a normal person with a job in makes in China. This would be like a cluster of Facebook or Google employees committing suicide in the U.S.

How strongly does being rich tend to correlate with a reduced suicide rate?

Re: How Apple's Moral Compass Works

#27

Post by thaumaturgy »

TomOfTTB wrote: post #24
thaumaturgy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They shouldn't be at a rate that's over 50% of the total suicide rate. Why not? I'm not familiar with Chinese culture -- can you explain why working at a factory should drop a person's odds of suicide to an arbitrary number less than 50% of the national average?

Because having a job at Foxconn is the equivalent of being rich there. You have air conditioning and in door plumbing. Foxconn workers make 2,000 renminbi (after Foxconn doubled their salary to stop the suicides). That's 3 times what a normal person with a job in makes in China. This would be like a cluster of Facebook or Google employees committing suicide in the U.S.

To be fair to your argument, everything I've read so far about working conditions at Foxconn would be considered close to slave labor in the U.S. ... so yes, there certainly is room for improvement there, and yes, Apple as a major customer could have some influence over the working conditions there if they wanted.

However, it's also worth considering that good mental health isn't likely to lead to suicide even in difficult working conditions; that depression, the number one cause of suicide [1], is a mental health problem whose treatment might or might not be within the realm of a company's ability to handle; and that even Disneyland in Paris has trouble with employee suicides. [2] Although, again, to be fair to you, that article leads right away by saying that the employees there have been complaining about poor working conditions.

Finally, there are cultural considerations. What are considered terrible work conditions by American standards might not be so horrible when viewed by Chinese standards, just as American work ethics are seen as 20th century by other countries.

[1]: http://www.suicide.org/depression-and-suicide.html

[2]: http://thedisneyblog.com/2011/02/04/fourth-disneyland-paris-...

Re: How Apple's Moral Compass Works

#28

Post by zalew »

edderly wrote: post #16

Why Apple doesn't use some kind of MPAA style rating system? That isn't without it's politics, but at least it gives a flavor how to deal with publication of different categories of material.

not a good example. MPAA is evil, their rating system is subjective and their commitee members' bios are in condradiction to their own rules. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPQmKTAAeik&feature=relat...

Re: How Apple's Moral Compass Works

#29

Post by aj700 »

The metric seems simple. It's not just Apple that's affected by the way the media find it ver easy to whip up a storm / moral panic / or as the article says "riots"...

If the decision to allow something will get us on Fox News, don't do it.

The media and political class are only allowed two positions on anything. Completely against or completely encouraging. Drugs. Infanticide etc. If you fail to condemn or block it, you're encouraging it. If you fail to encourage it, you're blocking it. Of course, when you spend less than any other industrialised country on education, you get a populous for whom everything is black and white.

Re: How Apple's Moral Compass Works

#30

Post by andrewflnr »

VoxelBoy wrote: post #7
palish wrote: post #2

Since HN doesn't have a private messaging system... VoxelBoy, I noticed your username. I'm a graphics programmer --- I'd love to read about the type of stuff you've done, or simply chat. Have you looked into Sparse Voxel Octrees? Toss me an email (it's in my profile).

Sure, I will. I'm currently doing game development with Unity and I haven't dabbled in self-contained graphics research. I would hazard that you know more about me when it comes to voxel data and rendering; regardless, it's a topic I'm very interested in. Aside: Voxatron by Lexaloffle is doing some cool things with voxels, check it out sometime.

Do you know about the OSS game ForeverWar? http://foreverwar.sourceforge.net/ It's not developed anymore, but even the demo is pretty fun, and it would be cool if you picked it up. Just an idea. :) Voxatron looks cool too.
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