A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career • Hacker News Board

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#21

Post by ogre_codes » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

cowpig wrote: post #4

A solution to a lot of these problems that I quite like is "birdnesting," where the child(ren) keep the home they live in, and the divorcing parents take turns moving in. That seems to be clearly best for the child (removes the instability of moving back and forth between homes) and while it's inconvenient for the parents, at least it's equally inconvenient.

Seems like a really good solution for amicable divorces. When there is a lot of conflict in the relationship, it's unlikely to work well. And really the latter describes most divorces I've seen. It seems like there is almost always one spouse who doesn't want to play well at the end.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#22

Post by arkitaip » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

roflc0ptic wrote: post #7

I don't have any strong opinions about the fairness or unfairness of divorce laws around parenting, not in the US and certainly not in Italy. However, I was recently a very close witness to some divorce proceedings involving my girlfriend and the end of her polyamorous marriage, and boy, oh boy. The husband made the decision to make the divorce as painful as possible (falsifying evidence, perjuring himself) to try to…

The problem is that marriage is one of those very few relationships that's design to be all-in or not exist at all. Even signing something like a prenup is seen as incredibly suspicious. All your financial decisions have to be based on the fact that you and your partner are going to stay together til death do you part.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#23

Post by newyankee » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

outime wrote: post #11

It happens a lot in Spain as well. I met many people (always men) who had to deal with similar situations. Unfortunately in some countries, forming a family can really go south for the guys if the woman decides so.

Not limited to developed countries either. Urban India has laws that are utterly stacked against men, a woman can easily destroy your life if she wants to and does happen. Trying to undo historical injustice does not mean skewing the system against an entire gender but that is where we are.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#24

Post by paultopia » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

This is astonishingly paranoid, even conspiracy-theory promoting. The writer claims at several points that divorce law in Italy is (allegedly) unfair because judges know that fathers typically have more resources to engage in litigation appealing bad judgments, and hence more lawyers and domestic violence clinics will get paid. Where is the evidence for such an over-the-top accusation?

The fact of the matter is that divorce is terrible, and there's no good way to allocate resources after the fact. Of course there isn't---divorce is fundamentally the destruction of all kinds of financial assets (all the economies of scale in the marriage) and the upsetting of huge social, financial, and geographic commitments, even without children being involved. Of course everyone is going to be dissatisfied with however the courts divide that poisoned pie.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#25

Post by vkou » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

stickyricky wrote: post #17

miker64 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mother being treated/expected to be more of a parent does not start at divorce. That's simply the continuation of a societal expectation that women will do the 'mothering.' Because that social expectation is there, it is far more often true that in a hetro marriage the wife will be the one who gives up their career path to take care of a child. Thus the court systems has standardized on an expectation that the mo…

> Because that social expectation is there [...] The court should temper society's vices not empower them.

The court should rule with a bias in favour of the person who had to sacrifice their career to care for the children, regardless of their gender.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#26

Post by xenocratus » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

_fq4v wrote: post #20

No fault divorce needs to go away when there are children involved. That is basically the end of it. Marriage is ultimately about creating family. You can't undo your marriage once you have a child anymore than you can undo your parentage or undo your relationship with a cousin. If mom and dad want to screw around with other people, their rights to do so obviously should not be restricted, but there should be no out…

Any studies that can support your claims that the mental health crisis, lack of grit etc. are due to divorce?

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#27

Post by zepto » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

miker64 wrote: post #18

zepto wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but once in place, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and an in-built part of sexism.

Sure, but the 'fix,' if there is one, likely needs to start with the social pressures on women to give up their lives to parent, with more equitable parenting expectations overall, and let that bubble up to the court baselines.

That becomes somewhat circular. It is impossible to reduce the social pressures on women to parent without simultaneously reducing the social pressures on men not to parent.

Clearly in this case, the man wanted to parent. The thing stopping him was the power of the court’s decision.

In the presence of a legal framework like this the only reasonable choice for a man is to assume he is expected not to parent, since that is what the courts will enforce.

The legislature acts to change other kinds of discriminatory legal framework, and this is no different.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#28

Post by xenihn » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

miker64 wrote: post #18

zepto wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but once in place, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and an in-built part of sexism.

Sure, but the 'fix,' if there is one, likely needs to start with the social pressures on women to give up their lives to parent, with more equitable parenting expectations overall, and let that bubble up to the court baselines.

No, the courts should impose their will on society in situations where equality needs to be enforced. Just imagine if the process you're describing had been used to stop segregation in the United States.

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#29

Post by thrur484 » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

roflc0ptic wrote: post #7

I don't have any strong opinions about the fairness or unfairness of divorce laws around parenting, not in the US and certainly not in Italy. However, I was recently a very close witness to some divorce proceedings involving my girlfriend and the end of her polyamorous marriage, and boy, oh boy. The husband made the decision to make the divorce as painful as possible (falsifying evidence, perjuring himself) to try to…

If he paid for the house...

Re: A divorce in Italy destroyed my researcher career

#30

Post by rbanffy » Tue, Nov 03, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

roflc0ptic wrote: post #7

I don't have any strong opinions about the fairness or unfairness of divorce laws around parenting, not in the US and certainly not in Italy. However, I was recently a very close witness to some divorce proceedings involving my girlfriend and the end of her polyamorous marriage, and boy, oh boy. The husband made the decision to make the divorce as painful as possible (falsifying evidence, perjuring himself) to try to…

> polyamorous marriage

I use to say those are O(n!) when they work, O(n!!) when they fall apart.