Why we need an Open Wireless movement • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we need an Open Wireless movement

#21

Post by yatsyk » Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 7:16 PM UTC

gst wrote: post #7

Too little, too late. Free Wifi was interesting a decade ago. Nowadays in most countries 3G is so cheap that nobody bothers trying to find an open access point. I currently pay 4 Euros per Gigabyte per month (or optionally 9 Euros for 9 Gigabytes) - that's all, no other monthly fees, no minimum charges, can be (optionally) combined with a voice plan. And in addition most newer laptops provide (optional) builtin 3G mo…

1G costs about $30K if I decide to use my phone in other country, so I'd say that reports about cheap 3G is greatly exaggerated

Re: Why we need an Open Wireless movement

#22

Post by yummyfajitas » Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 7:39 PM UTC

mdaniel wrote: post #17

ry0ohki wrote: post #3

I'm not sure how making your wireless network open is the "socially responsible" thing to do anymore then letting strangers come in and use your bathroom at will is. Sure, most people won't cause any harm, but it only takes one asshole (or too many people taking advantage) to make it a nightmare for you.

FWIW, I believe the idea is to segment the network so you are sharing your bandwidth, but not your "home network." A closer analogy would be letting strangers use the outhouse on your property, but not letting them in the house. The router used by Numericable here in France offers a "guest WiFi" connection out of the box. It is not enabled by default, mind you, but it is available nonetheless.

Probably the closest analogy would be seeding on bittorrent. No harm to you, beyond perhaps reduced network speed, but significant benefit to everyone else.

Re: Why we need an Open Wireless movement

#23

Post by alanh » Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 9:14 PM UTC

Shame on everyone who complains about the recent federal government domain seizures (torrent, poker sites) but poo-poos this important and highly reasonable article. Shame on everyone who despises the Great Firewall and the Middle Eastern Internet off buttons we have heard about recently, but is unwilling to take a small step towards ensuring free speech on the Internet.

Re: Why we need an Open Wireless movement

#24

Post by throwawaywifi » Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 9:34 PM UTC

They acknowledge but do not even address the "cops breaking down your door" problem. I don't think it admits of a solution. Technical approaches like putting unknown MACs behind a firewall to block filesharing or filter the web are imperfect and prove that you knew leaving your wifi open might help baby-rapers.

(Pardon the throwaway, but I do run an open wifi. If I do win that unlucky lottery, I don't want some zealous prosecutor digging up this comment.)

Re: Why we need an Open Wireless movement

#25

Post by kleiba » Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 9:35 PM UTC

gst wrote: post #7

Too little, too late. Free Wifi was interesting a decade ago. Nowadays in most countries 3G is so cheap that nobody bothers trying to find an open access point. I currently pay 4 Euros per Gigabyte per month (or optionally 9 Euros for 9 Gigabytes) - that's all, no other monthly fees, no minimum charges, can be (optionally) combined with a voice plan. And in addition most newer laptops provide (optional) builtin 3G mo…

Can you use 3G anonymously?

Re: Why we need an Open Wireless movement

#26

Post by waqf » Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 10:03 PM UTC

bradleyland wrote: post #18

I get where the EFF is coming from. From a technical standpoint, the notion that "WiFi everywhere" could be delivered easily if everyone just opened their networks is sound, but their arguments trivialize a lot of the consequences. Take this gem: "...a desire to prevent their neighbors from "free riding" on their connections; and a fear that unencrypted WiFi is a security or privacy risk. Both of those reasons have a…

If your wifi is to an internal network firewalled from the internet, then yes of course you'd want to secure it.

But most home wifi (which is what we're talking about here) is routed more or less directly to the inherently untrusted internet. If you're sending unencrypted data you care about to that then you already have a problem. (Yes, it's true that people are sending unencrypted data they care about across the internet and it's true that they already have a problem.)

Re: Why we need an Open Wireless movement

#27

Post by waqf » Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 10:07 PM UTC

throwawaywifi wrote: post #24

They acknowledge but do not even address the "cops breaking down your door" problem. I don't think it admits of a solution. Technical approaches like putting unknown MACs behind a firewall to block filesharing or filter the web are imperfect and prove that you knew leaving your wifi open might help baby-rapers. (Pardon the throwaway, but I do run an open wifi. If I do win that unlucky lottery, I don't want some zealo…

In a world where it was understood that everyone ran free wifi, the courts would stop accepting that illegal activity from your IP was a reason for the cops to break down your door. Just as it's obvious today that illegal activity from a Starbucks open wifi isn't a reason for the cops to break into Starbucks.

I'm not saying it's easy to get there from here, but a solution is clearly not inherently impossible.

Re: Why we need an Open Wireless movement

#28

Post by waqf » Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 10:11 PM UTC

noelchurchill wrote: post #5

This seems like a non-issue to me, especially in the age of smartphones with personal wifi hotspot abilities.

Cellphone-based systems are an inefficient use of bandwidth, as is explained in the article. This cost is passed on to you as poor data rates and unbelievable roaming charges (compared to the cost per gigabyte of home internet). Is that really the future you want?

Re: Why we need an Open Wireless movement

#29

Post by waqf » Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 10:13 PM UTC

Wuzzy wrote: post #12

"Our failure to work together prevents us from enjoying better, more widespread Internet access." I almost didn't manage to read further. The same can be said about so many things (if everyone just took or borrowed what he needed in a responsible manner, we wouldn't need money at all... to name the most utopian example), yet this kind of reasoning simply doesn't work, as has been shown both practically and theoretica…

The EFF is trying to propose a technical solution, not simply to change people's attitudes by an appeal to greater good.

Re: Why we need an Open Wireless movement

#30

Post by pmjordan » Thu, Apr 28, 2011, 10:17 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #22

mdaniel wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I believe the idea is to segment the network so you are sharing your bandwidth, but not your "home network." A closer analogy would be letting strangers use the outhouse on your property, but not letting them in the house. The router used by Numericable here in France offers a "guest WiFi" connection out of the box. It is not enabled by default, mind you, but it is available nonetheless.

Probably the closest analogy would be seeding on bittorrent. No harm to you, beyond perhaps reduced network speed, but significant benefit to everyone else.

Unfortunately, in many countries[1] you'll be prosecuted as an accessory if someone commits a crime via your connection, unless you set it up in such a way that you're legally an ISP. This is obviously a lot of trouble, so you're better off not bothering.

[1] there have been a number of cases in Germany, for example