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Real-Life Angel Investing Returns 2012–2016

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Re: Real-Life Angel Investing Returns 2012–2016

#21
post #11

I kind of doubt that doing VC without being very high profile has better risk adjusted returns than SPY. Of course this somewhat hard to calculate on the VC side due to the lack of transparency and illiquidity of the market. But in fact that author is going about this all wrong. It doesn't really matter if VC outperforms. The point of VC or hedge funds or any other alternative investments isn't to outperform the mark…

> But in fact that author is going about this all wrong. It doesn't really matter if VC outperforms. The point of VC or hedge funds or any other alternative investments isn't too outperform the market on a risk adjusted basis (though that would be nice), but to provide a uncorrelated return stream.

This is correct, but it's pretty clear the the author isn't viewing angle investment in mere economic terms (which is an extremely sensible thing to do).

From the post: "When you invest in a startup, the money directly goes to the economy to build up a business, to create jobs and to actually contribute to the trickle down economy."

Re: Real-Life Angel Investing Returns 2012–2016

#22

Anyone angel on a FAANG salary, not FB IPO millions?

From my stint working in the bay area, it seems like tons of older low level executives at tech companies (probably bringing in comparable income to staff engineers at FAANG) treat angel investing like golf. Most of the wealthy folks will do it at least once as a social activity, but most of them don't really know what they're doing.

Re: Real-Life Angel Investing Returns 2012–2016

#23
I disagree on the choice of benchmarks as they're not really comparable. A more comparable benchmark for angel investments in Internet / SW startups would be a broad-based ETF that covers those. Picking a couple of the larger ones, I looked at the same periods (2012-2019 and 2016-2019) for each of them:

FDN: 4.31x / 1.86x IGV: 4.41x / 2.27x overall mean: 3.2x

Not much different than QQQ's 3.04x, but SPY is not a good benchmark due to big differences in underlying constituents.

I'd want to get a better handle on the timing of investments as well to make the benchmark more comparable - e.g., if 50% of the capital was deployed in 2012 (hypothetically) and 10% in each of the following 5 years then I'd weight my benchmark performance in the same fashion.

Finally, I would want to discount the angel investment portfolio for lack of control and liquidity. Much depends on the specifics of the recent fundraising - is the valuation using the pref figure or is it a reasonable approximation of the valuation of the seed paper (adjusting for structural differences)?

Personally, I'd rather have a well-diversified liquid ETF return of X than a portfolio of illiquid minority stakes that are marked to 1.2X. At 2X, I'd be happy with the restrictions.

Please don't misinterpret this as dumping on the result - IMO I believe this to be an above-average outcome and I congratulate the author on their success. Angel is harder than most if the top-few % of investments are not in a portfolio.

Re: Real-Life Angel Investing Returns 2012–2016

#24
post #21
post #11

I kind of doubt that doing VC without being very high profile has better risk adjusted returns than SPY. Of course this somewhat hard to calculate on the VC side due to the lack of transparency and illiquidity of the market. But in fact that author is going about this all wrong. It doesn't really matter if VC outperforms. The point of VC or hedge funds or any other alternative investments isn't to outperform the mark…

> But in fact that author is going about this all wrong. It doesn't really matter if VC outperforms. The point of VC or hedge funds or any other alternative investments isn't too outperform the market on a risk adjusted basis (though that would be nice), but to provide a uncorrelated return stream. This is correct, but it's pretty clear the the author isn't viewing angle investment in mere economic terms (which is an…

> From the post: "When you invest in a startup, the money directly goes to the economy to build up a business, to create jobs and to actually contribute to the trickle down economy."

and this is completely wrong.

The money public investors pay to exiting shareholders do play a major role in the economy - it enables the early, IPO/angel investors to exit, and allows them to convert capital locked in the established startups to new startups, without waiting to "cash-out" using the company's profits (which may be years away).

In other words, the public markets makes capital movement much more efficient. It lets high risk takers take on bigger risks (for the corresponding potential return), without taking up the required time.

It's a misconception that many people have, that investing in the public markets is less useful to the economy than direct investment. Both play a critical role, and without one or the other, the capital markets will be _way_ less efficient.

Re: Real-Life Angel Investing Returns 2012–2016

#25
post #22

Anyone angel on a FAANG salary, not FB IPO millions?

From my stint working in the bay area, it seems like tons of older low level executives at tech companies (probably bringing in comparable income to staff engineers at FAANG) treat angel investing like golf. Most of the wealthy folks will do it at least once as a social activity, but most of them don't really know what they're doing.

it's like buying a lottery ticket - good if you win, doesn't hurt if you lose.

Re: Real-Life Angel Investing Returns 2012–2016

#26
post #11

I kind of doubt that doing VC without being very high profile has better risk adjusted returns than SPY. Of course this somewhat hard to calculate on the VC side due to the lack of transparency and illiquidity of the market. But in fact that author is going about this all wrong. It doesn't really matter if VC outperforms. The point of VC or hedge funds or any other alternative investments isn't to outperform the mark…

Equities in a given sector, whether public or private, tend to be highly correlated, but external observers just don't really get the full picture unless they dig into the specifics of the situation.

IME, private marks in aggregate are less volatile than equivalent public performance for a wide range of reasons, but that doesn't mean that a private manager can liquidate a portfolio company at an optimistic mark in a downcycle any more than the manager wouldn't be able to get a better price than the last mark in an upswing.

I think it's also worth clarifying for other readers that the risk you're talking about is volatility and has nothing to do with the actual fundamental risks of a given investment. Private equity (broadly defined) managers look to minimize risks in their investments, but they're talking about business and financing risks. I don't think I've ever heard a private equity manager ever talk about minimizing volatility and I'm ok with that.

Re: Real-Life Angel Investing Returns 2012–2016

#27
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

250k/yr in income or 1m in net worth. So many (most?) SV engineers are qualified.

Correction: an individual income - 200k/yr as of Oct-15, 2020 [1] > Any natural person who had an individual income in excess of $200,000 in each of the two most recent years or joint income with that person's spouse in excess of $300,000 in each of those years and has a reasonable expectation of reaching the same income level in the current year [1] https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=8edfd12967...

Also if you're married, joint income of $300k. For 2 people working in Silicon Valley, that's easily achievable.

Re: Real-Life Angel Investing Returns 2012–2016

#28
post #13
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe at FAANGs, but $250K is far above the median SWR salary in SV.

Maybe for salary but not for TC. I suspect median TC in the bay area is close to $250,000 just because of how many people are earning $300k+ at public companies.

Real world isn’t Blind

Re: Real-Life Angel Investing Returns 2012–2016

#29
post #11

I kind of doubt that doing VC without being very high profile has better risk adjusted returns than SPY. Of course this somewhat hard to calculate on the VC side due to the lack of transparency and illiquidity of the market. But in fact that author is going about this all wrong. It doesn't really matter if VC outperforms. The point of VC or hedge funds or any other alternative investments isn't to outperform the mark…

I strongly disagree that using such methods to calculate a minimum variance optimization is a reasonable benchmark for portfolio performance. The issue is limited historic data is a very poor fit for future risks.

Looking at gold over the last say 2,000 years years shows a very bumpy ride with large long term negative returns. Stock data doesn’t have anything close to that kind of history, but looking at various historic stock markets again shows a lot more variety than simply reviewing a winner like the US stock market.

Essentially, with bad enough assumptions or data any calculation is meaningless.

Re: Real-Life Angel Investing Returns 2012–2016

#30

I disagree on the choice of benchmarks as they're not really comparable. A more comparable benchmark for angel investments in Internet / SW startups would be a broad-based ETF that covers those. Picking a couple of the larger ones, I looked at the same periods (2012-2019 and 2016-2019) for each of them: FDN: 4.31x / 1.86x IGV: 4.41x / 2.27x overall mean: 3.2x Not much different than QQQ's 3.04x, but SPY is not a good…

I am also curious how many hours this individual put into the investing. I put about two or three hours a year into my investments in VTSAX and VTIAX -- just rebalancing. I would expect given the nature of angel investing that this person put in a good deal more work.

Let's say the per company deal size is $100k, and the excess risk adjusted returns are 2%. That means the deal would be worth about $2k extra to you, annually. (I'm counting your baseline investing effort as epsilon, so the deal gets no credit for returns matching my mutual funds.) Suppose your daily rate is $2k/day. You'd want to spend no more than a work day on this deal, per year, over the life of the investment.

If the amounts are smaller, or the excess risk adjusted returns are lower, then you'd want to spend less time per deal. This calculus also only applies if you have enough money to roll the dice enough times for the risk to even out. If you only have a million to invest, you'd only be able to do ten deals this size. Perhaps your hourly rate is lower, so you haven't accumulated as much of a warchest. In that kind of situation, you might be willing to work more for the same absolute amount of excess returns, but your risk would also be higher. So your risk-adjusted excess returns might shrink to a negative value.

Of course, you can tweak all the variables as suits you, and also there's the possibility that you are person who just enjoys angel investing, the feeling of importance that comes with hob-nobbing with the who's-who, etc. If that's so, then you could view the work as the price of entry, to the extent that it underperforms ordinary investments.

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