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Virgin Hyperloop picks West Virginia to test high-speed transport system

reuters.com

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Re: Virgin Hyperloop picks West Virginia to test high-speed transport system

#21

Post by VBprogrammer »

yabones wrote: post #3

I'm very skeptical of this concept because of how difficult it is to build and maintain a massive vacuum chamber that will experience that level of stress over its lifespan. As far as I know, the largest vacuum chamber in the world by volume is the SPF at NASA [1], which is only 37x30m in size. Building such a vessel hundreds of kilometres in length that would have bullet trains going through it multiple times a day…

Vacuum chambers are generally safer because they don't explode; they implode. Also, the maximum pressure differential is quite low, by definition, around 14psi.

Although if your traveling at 500mph towards a section of tunnel which has deformed in any way your are pretty screwed.

Re: Virgin Hyperloop picks West Virginia to test high-speed transport system

#22

Post by JPKab »

soyiuz wrote: post #2

Hyperloop sounds like a bunch of hype. High speed trains are a thing already, as are MagLev trains, as are trains that go through tunnels, called the subway. The lack of their success in the US market has little to do with the technology itself and more to do with politics. The addition of vacuum tunnels does little to alleviate the administrative / financial challenges of our struggling train systems. Vacuum has few…

You're focused too much on the vacuum aspect of the tube, and not nearly enough on the fact that it's a tube, with enough self-support to be elevated on pylons and is an order of magnitude easier to build than pouring a foundation for maglev tracks.

High speed rail track is dramatically more difficult and expensive to build than a hyperloop tube system. This was, from the beginning, the huge differentiator between the two. Hyperloop tubes aren't comparable to road or rail bridges/tracks, but instead are comparable to constructing oil/gas/water pipelines. We know how much easier it is already to build those.

Re: Virgin Hyperloop picks West Virginia to test high-speed transport system

#23

Post by nickik »

yabones wrote: post #3

I'm very skeptical of this concept because of how difficult it is to build and maintain a massive vacuum chamber that will experience that level of stress over its lifespan. As far as I know, the largest vacuum chamber in the world by volume is the SPF at NASA [1], which is only 37x30m in size. Building such a vessel hundreds of kilometres in length that would have bullet trains going through it multiple times a day…

I don't know about Virgin system but Elon Musk original Hyperloop paper clearly stated:

> The problem with this approach is that it is incredibly hard to maintain a near vacuum in a room, let alone 700 miles (round trip) of large tube with dozens of station gateways and thousands of pods entering and exiting every day. All it takes is one leaky seal or a small crack somewhere in the hundreds of miles of tube and the whole system stops working.

> However, a low pressure (vs. almost no pressure) system set to a level wherestandard commercial pumps could easily overcome an air leak and the transport pods could handle variable air density would be inherently robust.

Re: Virgin Hyperloop picks West Virginia to test high-speed transport system

#24

Post by Brendinooo »

jcranmer wrote: post #14
mac01021 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a flattering impression of the state you have. Anyway, WV is between NYC and DC, and there was a good site available for them to build their prototype.

Uh... West Virginia is nowhere near the NYC-DC axis. It is potentially on the route between DC and Chicago, but most crayon maps would rather hook the Midwest into the Northeast Corridor by going via Pittsburgh, the Juniata water gaps, Harrisburg, and Philadelphia instead of picking a more southerly route that hits Baltimore or DC.

The site selected is about three hours from DC. But yeah, nowhere near NYC.

Interestingly enough, I was reading an article[0] about how Wheeling and Pittsburgh were competing to be the gateway to the west. When the National Road bypassed Pittsburgh, that was a big win for Wheeling. Most of the rail ended up going through Pittsburgh, though, and then the PA Turnpike opened a path through the mountains that further solidified Pittsburgh's advantage.

For WV's part, I could see them being very motivated to try and bring a new mode of transportation through their state.

[0]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/20093288?seq=1

Re: Virgin Hyperloop picks West Virginia to test high-speed transport system

#25

Post by dragontamer »

timerol wrote: post #19
peterwoerner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the goal with the vacuum is to get to even higher speed rail which can compete with airplanes for speed and convenience. The thought being, rail has to be clearly better than flying for it work. That said vacuum comes with many technical issues.

The Northeast Corridor is wildly profitable for Amtrak (based on operating costs), despite being significantly worse than flying, and often slower than driving. (It's faster than rush-hour driving, but that's about it.) Making fast-enough rail that connects useful places, and upgrading the speed of existing rail that meets the same criteria, is a much better strategy IMO than trying to do "better than flying" rail ba…

> The Northeast Corridor is wildly profitable for Amtrak (based on operating costs), despite being significantly worse than flying, and often slower than driving. (It's faster than rush-hour driving, but that's about it.)

Worse than flying?

I can take the train from Wash. DC to New York City Penn Station, visit my friends who live in the city by walking alone, and then come back home in time for dinner. (Broadway, Time Square, and Wall Street are all walking-distance from Penn Station)

The closest airport to NYC center is LaGuardia Airport, off of the island. Then you have to spend money on an Uber (or take the train!) into the city anyway. (Cheapest to Uber to the Purple line, then take the purple line into the city).

------------

The Train's competition is a Bus. There are PLENTY of cheap busses that travel the route.

--------

Even if you're off of Manhattan in say... Brooklyn. I'd rather be at Penn Station than LaGuardia Airport. Penn Station has a direct subway line to Brooklyn. Its non-obvious how I'd get from LaGuardia to Brooklyn unless my friends spend time to pick me up (or I take an expensive Uber)

Re: Virgin Hyperloop picks West Virginia to test high-speed transport system

#26

Post by bigbubba »

yabones wrote: post #3

I'm very skeptical of this concept because of how difficult it is to build and maintain a massive vacuum chamber that will experience that level of stress over its lifespan. As far as I know, the largest vacuum chamber in the world by volume is the SPF at NASA [1], which is only 37x30m in size. Building such a vessel hundreds of kilometres in length that would have bullet trains going through it multiple times a day…

> A single leak anywhere in the tube could potentially cause explosive pressurization [2].

Also search 'vacuum cannon' for what a long depressurized tube can do. If the tube ever got breached, the atmosphere would rush into it and propel anything inside the tube like a cannonball.

Re: Virgin Hyperloop picks West Virginia to test high-speed transport system

#28

Post by dangus »

soyiuz wrote: post #2

Hyperloop sounds like a bunch of hype. High speed trains are a thing already, as are MagLev trains, as are trains that go through tunnels, called the subway. The lack of their success in the US market has little to do with the technology itself and more to do with politics. The addition of vacuum tunnels does little to alleviate the administrative / financial challenges of our struggling train systems. Vacuum has few…

While I agree with your overall point, and I also think that hyperloop deployment is unrealistic, I think part of the idea of the concept of hyperloop is to make high speed rail fast enough for the expansive sizes of America.

If you took a 300km/hr train from Orlando to New York City, you’d still be competing poorly with a $100 Spirit Airlines flight.

That’s almost 6 hours on the train compared to a 2 hour flight.

Even in China where they’ve got the best high speed rail system in the world, most of the major cities are concentrated on one cost with huge populations and you still have Chinese travelers choosing low cost airlines for many longer trips (air travel in China was exploding before Covid).

I think what America needs to do is not to focus on long distance rail (which is what the current Amtrak CEO is doing) and to expand intercity high speed rail lines between major cities. There should be high speed rail linking relatively close regions that have clusters of cities.

(And of course, all of this is a great argument for making airline tickets pay more for their climate externalities - trains should be more attractive to consumers on price because they’re the lowest carbon form of transport)

Re: Virgin Hyperloop picks West Virginia to test high-speed transport system

#29

Post by dave5104 »

briefcomment wrote: post #7
soyiuz wrote: post #2

Hyperloop sounds like a bunch of hype. High speed trains are a thing already, as are MagLev trains, as are trains that go through tunnels, called the subway. The lack of their success in the US market has little to do with the technology itself and more to do with politics. The addition of vacuum tunnels does little to alleviate the administrative / financial challenges of our struggling train systems. Vacuum has few…

One way to overcome politics is to make something sound so cool that the public is generally on board with it.

I have little faith in something being cool preventing people from being up in arms about infrastructure builds in their backyard.

Re: Virgin Hyperloop picks West Virginia to test high-speed transport system

#30

Post by bigbubba »

dragontamer wrote: post #25
timerol wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Northeast Corridor is wildly profitable for Amtrak (based on operating costs), despite being significantly worse than flying, and often slower than driving. (It's faster than rush-hour driving, but that's about it.) Making fast-enough rail that connects useful places, and upgrading the speed of existing rail that meets the same criteria, is a much better strategy IMO than trying to do "better than flying" rail ba…

> The Northeast Corridor is wildly profitable for Amtrak (based on operating costs), despite being significantly worse than flying, and often slower than driving. (It's faster than rush-hour driving, but that's about it.) Worse than flying? I can take the train from Wash. DC to New York City Penn Station, visit my friends who live in the city by walking alone, and then come back home in time for dinner. (Broadway, Ti…

The trains are also more comfortable than [coach] plane seats by a long mile, and you don't have to deal with TSA either. Showing up at the station the minute the train rolls out is/was very feasible, unlike with flying. When I lived in Philly I used Amtrak every chance I got, whether I was going north to NY, south to DC, or west to Harrisburg. It was great. Very comfortable and low stress. And I could generally get tickets on short notice for a price affordable to a student.
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