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Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

paulgraham.com

21–30 of 49 posts

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#21
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Struck a nerve? Not a nerd? Confusion about terms? Most people spend large part of their effort on popularity contest. Nerd is somebody that even if he/she would like to take part in the contest they value other, more intellectual exercises. They end up underdeveloped socially because they don't have as much experience as somebody that spends most of their time partying, socializing or avoiding study or work to be ab…

> Nerd is somebody that even if he/she would like to take part in the contest they value other, more intellectual exercises No, nerds are the people who lost the general popularity contest and then started one in a parallel universe. Almost nobody is more competitive about status than subcultures internally, almost like a middle-finger towards society at large. This shows in video game competitions, programming langu…

I think the parallel universe is created prior to losing the popularity contest, by sheer force of mutual interests.

And I don't see why nerds are more viciously competitive than other groups, your examples can be easily matched with ones from non-nerd universe. You hardly see an editor war actually turning violent.

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#22
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nerd is somebody that even if he/she would like to take part in the contest they value other, more intellectual exercises No, nerds are the people who lost the general popularity contest and then started one in a parallel universe. Almost nobody is more competitive about status than subcultures internally, almost like a middle-finger towards society at large. This shows in video game competitions, programming langu…

I think the parallel universe is created prior to losing the popularity contest, by sheer force of mutual interests. And I don't see why nerds are more viciously competitive than other groups, your examples can be easily matched with ones from non-nerd universe. You hardly see an editor war actually turning violent.

> You hardly see an editor war actually turning violent

This is funny because this specific wording allows for the possibility that it has happened at least once.

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#23
Paul Graham and I haven't been in high school for a loooong time.

My suspicion is that things have changed somewhat. That the youth are somewhat more tolerant and mature than they were back in my day. The kids I meet seem way ahead of where I was in high school.

Like in the movie 21 jump street, where 2 cops go undecover at a school, jock and unpopular kid. Only the jock learns his ways are no longer 'cool'.

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#24
Since we(comments and PG) are all peddling anecdotes..

IME, the dynamics in Indian schools, are polar opposite to the ones described here. "Nerds" tend to do well in both academics and extracurriculars. And in the majority case can also be referred to simultaneously as "Jocks". The separation between "nerds" and "jocks" into two ends of a (lunch table) spectrum is the biggest culture shock to me. The words that separate "nerds" and "jocks" don't exist in my native language's vocabulary even.

For the longest time, I believed that intelligence is a broadly applicable trait, that translates well to rapid spatial reasoning(sports), abstract reasoning(academics) and emotional awareness(social). I haven't seen even a single exception to the rule while going through the Indian school system.

While there is some truth to it. IMHO, it has to do with cultural ideals that "adults" adhere to. Academic achievement isn't celebrated culturally in US (relatively speaking).

I say that while also simultaneously acknowledging that the current Indian definition of academic achievement is disastrously narrow and breeds a culture of arrogance and intellectual insecurity.

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#25
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parallel universe is created prior to losing the popularity contest, by sheer force of mutual interests. And I don't see why nerds are more viciously competitive than other groups, your examples can be easily matched with ones from non-nerd universe. You hardly see an editor war actually turning violent.

> You hardly see an editor war actually turning violent This is funny because this specific wording allows for the possibility that it has happened at least once.

Well, to make my point, we do often see (e.g.) a soccer cheering crowd war turning violent.

To be fair, even though my wording has allowed for the possibility, I have never seen or heard about an editor war turning violent. I did see more than once nerd arguments gathering enough heat that it granted a "jury".

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#26

Ok as someone who enjoys doing 'nerdy' things but would count myself as 'popular' etc this article is deluded on the ways popularity and school operate. Noone cares if you enjoy programming or computers as long as you act relatively 'normal'. It's not that nerds care about intelligence more than popularity (trust me most aren't) it's just that the nerds have already lost the popularity race by being socially awkward…

> No one cares if you enjoy programming or computers as long as you act relatively 'normal'. It's not that nerds care about intelligence more than popularity (trust me most aren't) it's just that the nerds have already lost the popularity race by being socially awkward individuals that can't hold a conversation about any topics other than very specific subjects to save their life.

This passage makes me think you missed the points of the essay.

PG isn't saying "people hate people who enjoy computers and want to shove them into lockers." Rather, he's saying that status competition in middle/high school is a brutal Darwinian struggle, and those who have anything stopping them from optimizing solely for status, will lose the race.

Your comment about awkwardness/inability to hold a conversation doesn't strike true either. Rather, I felt like no one else could hold a conversation. Time has born this out; many of my nerd friends have gone on to people/verbal professions, and I'm one of the more gregarious developers you'll meet. I played a lot of sports and so had substantial intercourse with my school's popular crowd---I would not list "conversation" as one of their strengths.

Now, one caveat here: The idea that "nerds are just awkward weirdos" isn't entirely without base. I think there are two types of people who get labeled as "weird" --- actually-messed-up people, and also people who are interested in something out-of-context. The trouble with school is that, because your actions don't affect the world, it's impossible to distinguish between the two---like how you couldn't tell Einstein from the Time Cube guy (https://timecube.2enp.com/) if you couldn't do experiments.

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As COVID-19 shows, it is most of the times Nerds are unpopular, admitting they really are and care about being popular, because they mostly don't believe in luck, faith, higher beings and what common people usually think it's important in life A nerd won't think yoga it's good because yoga is popular on Instagram, a nerd believes exercise is important, regardless of the cool factor People don't like being told "your…

what are you talking about? Since we are generalizing, being popular is awesome. And, objectively better than not being popular. I guess I'm not intelligent.

I'm talking about a simple fact: being popular is easy, being right is not

I'm talking about the fact that being popular in school has nothing to do with objectively having a good life

Usually people good in sports are popular in high school because have more confidence, it doesn't mean they'll be happy adults

Nerds are not popular because they aren't looking for easy solutions, but to master something

It requires sacrifice and trying to be popular is the most useless of the distractions

I guess that's another of the cultural differences between US and Europe: the pinnacle of our life is way after school and who was or wasn't popular back then is not important when you reach adulthood

Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#29
post #7

eh I hate this kind of Ender's game self-victimisation. Nerds aren't unpopular because they're too smart for school and all the athletic jocks envy them, they're unpopular because they act like nerds. That's not a passive thing happening to someone, it's something that people actively act like. Obviously one can be highly intelligent in school and not be nerdy, everyone knows people who are intelligent as well as pop…

PG addressed the point about envy and he does not argue that envy drives unpopularity. Regardless, I'm with you on your first two paragraphs, but not sure I agree with all of the last one. In my opinion, the "act like nerds" part likely comes from temperamental traits such as social anxiety, higher sensitivity, etc. For identifying with "being smart" (whether they actually are, is debatable) I would argue it is at le…

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Re: Why Nerds Are Unpopular (2003)

#30
post #18
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it was definitely an exception. I dare to disagree again with you regarding envy. Mostly because (and I am being biased here) I felt that I had more fun than the other groups. I was building a radio with my friends, they were pecking at each other at basketball, forever busy at keeping their ranks.

>I was building a radio with my friends, they were pecking at each other at basketball, forever busy at keeping their ranks. It seems as though you're assuming they didn't enjoy basketball as much as you enjoyed building radios, or that their friendships weren't as fulfilling as yours. There's no need to diminish other people to validate yourself.

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