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The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

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Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#21

Post by sterlind »

aSockPuppeteer wrote: post #17
api wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The remote viewing stuff was a bit silly, but the MKUltra stuff included a lot of very unethical human experimentation. These two things are not really in the same category in terms of scandal.

There was actually some truth to remote viewing working in very specific scenarios. Operationally is a different story though. The studies, Ganzfeld experiments, said once you learn if you were right or not, your skill improves a little. For some reason young students from Julliard had the highest scores. The test was 4 possible pictures iirc and you must guess the picture another person is looking at. In a meta-anal…

Has there been recent research on this? It'd be interesting to see if seeing the person's face matters, or how far they are, or what traits the more gifted have other than a talent for music.

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#22

Post by sterlind »

> Back then, the turnaround time for a request was far quicker than it is now. “It’s really night and day,” he told me recently. It averaged, by Greenewald’s estimate, a couple of months before he heard an answer; today the wait is often measured in years.

This is sad, and something we should be pushing back on hard. FOIA needs an SLA agencies can be held accountable to.

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#23

Post by AndrewBissell »

hnmonkey wrote: post #11
breakbread wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the crazier projects https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midnight_Climax

That is an absolute bombshell of a story and I'd guess that the vast majority of people have never heard of it but would be horrified if they did. It sounds like they even blackmailed the people.

If you think that's horrifying, let me introduce you to Dr. Jolly West and the Jimmy Shaver case:

https://theintercept.com/2019/11/24/cia-mkultra-louis-jolyon...

Highly recommend Tom O'Neill's 'CHAOS' for some of the new details he dug up on MKULTRA. The rumor mill has it that he is working on a new book exploring its potential ties to the RFK assassination, the Grateful Dead, and the Jonestown massacre.

On the subject of the Jonestown/MKULTRA links, also check out this interview with an aide to Congressman Leo Ryan (who was killed when he went to investigate in Guyana): https://twitter.com/gumby4christ/status/1289361962917191681

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#24

Post by AndrewBissell »

_jal wrote: post #6
api wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The remote viewing stuff was a bit silly, but the MKUltra stuff included a lot of very unethical human experimentation. These two things are not really in the same category in terms of scandal.

People like to laugh about it, and the emphasis on the sillier aspects are, I think, intentional. They got up to some really nasty stuff. Anyone not familiar with the program would do well to spend a couple minutes on the summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra And of course it served as the template for how to deal with the Abu Ghraib fallout: Given the CIA's purposeful destruction of most records, it…

'The Men Who Stare at Goats' points out that the whole "haha they're making them listen to the Barney song, that drives me crazy when my kids make me put it on too!" was probably a cover for more sinister interrogation or even mind control techniques being explored with music blasted at prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

Surely just a coincidence that the cult leader of ISIS was at that same prison ....

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#25

Post by AndrewBissell »

_zzaw wrote: post #15
HillRat wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except MKULTRA was part of CIA’s “family jewels” —- indeed, it was so infamous that a cover letter to the DCI suggested they not familiarize themselves with the program in order to maintain plausible deniability. And MKULTRA was only part of a set of equally concerning operations, such as its progenitors, BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE, or Project OFTEN, which collaborated with pharmaceutical firms to uncover drugs too risky…

I have to wonder about the extent to which the CIA really believed this was possible, or if it was more along the lines of "well sure, it sounds batshit, but the Soviets are doing it and if there really is something to it, we don't want to be behind in the game." When one has infinite funding and no ethical oversight, the pit really is bottomless.

It's more likely, given the CIA's provenance, that the initial idea came from the Nazi prison camp experiments.

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#26

Post by browserface »

keanebean86 wrote: post #4
Fnoord wrote: post #2

> The Black Vault’s biggest score to date may be its material related to MKUltra, a top-secret CIA project that involved dozens of mind-control experiments on US citizens and others. [..] Why would this be the biggest score (title doesn't reflect it)? Was this the first documentation regarding MKULTRA/ARTICHOKE/BLUEBIRD? For those interesting in CIA's attempts to explore New Age (e.g. apply "remote viewing") I can re…

I assume the CIA leaks mkultra and related stuff to keep the crazies busy and troll other countries. There's also patents for seemingly impossible technology filed by the Navy. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a30645682...

You mean the crazies like you? RV is real. Look into it and try it

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00788...

Ed Dames, Pat Price, Dean Radin

Or maybe you weren't saying you think it's false, and people who believe something you think is false are crazies....

Maybe you were saying, true or not, the leak is crazy fodder and trolling. I'm sure that's part of it....

But it did seem flippant, and I don't think you should be so flippant about a topic like MKULTRA.... wasn't that seriously harmful to lots of people?

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#27

Post by browserface »

sterlind wrote: post #21
aSockPuppeteer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was actually some truth to remote viewing working in very specific scenarios. Operationally is a different story though. The studies, Ganzfeld experiments, said once you learn if you were right or not, your skill improves a little. For some reason young students from Julliard had the highest scores. The test was 4 possible pictures iirc and you must guess the picture another person is looking at. In a meta-anal…

Has there been recent research on this? It'd be interesting to see if seeing the person's face matters, or how far they are, or what traits the more gifted have other than a talent for music.

Seeing faces doesn't matter, there are other ways to create an association to get on target. Distance doesn't matter. Some people are more naturally talented. But since it's relatively unknown there are probably lots of very talented people out there who have no idea they have talent.

You can check out the Applied precognition project. this group brings together many of the well-known and prominent researchers and I suppose former government practitioners. and also permits I think members of public to get involved in regular taskings.

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#28

Post by garmaine »

lsiebert wrote: post #16
Fnoord wrote: post #2

> The Black Vault’s biggest score to date may be its material related to MKUltra, a top-secret CIA project that involved dozens of mind-control experiments on US citizens and others. [..] Why would this be the biggest score (title doesn't reflect it)? Was this the first documentation regarding MKULTRA/ARTICHOKE/BLUEBIRD? For those interesting in CIA's attempts to explore New Age (e.g. apply "remote viewing") I can re…

It's not actually a documentary, more like a loose semi fictional adaption of a book.

He's talking about the 2004 documentary series on TV.

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#29

Post by browserface »

Fnoord wrote: post #2

> The Black Vault’s biggest score to date may be its material related to MKUltra, a top-secret CIA project that involved dozens of mind-control experiments on US citizens and others. [..] Why would this be the biggest score (title doesn't reflect it)? Was this the first documentation regarding MKULTRA/ARTICHOKE/BLUEBIRD? For those interesting in CIA's attempts to explore New Age (e.g. apply "remote viewing") I can re…

Rather than watching the goats movie which is pretty bullshit, search the CIA library for "CENTER LANE SPECIAL ACCESS PROGRAM" which was the DIA's remote viewing, remote influence program utilizing psychoenergetics.

It resulted in at least "3 intelligence community firsts", was rated by Joint Chiefs of Staff as producing intelligence qualitatively the same as other sources, and (even tho it continued long after) until 1983 50% of the collection missions produced actionable intelligence while 85% had accurate target information.

So it's neither "silly", nor for "crazies" nor disparagingly "New Age". But it requires critical and unbiased thinking to engage with it without falling into the "feel good" trap of baseless ridicule.

The program developed methods and training for remote collection and influence, and the CIA reading room has an abundance of formerly SAP classified information about this, which I think is just crazy that it has been released, but it has.

To people reacting like this is made up...you can sit there in your armchair and feel better by telling yourself this has to be bogus, because that's what you've been told to think, or you can discover the information that's been put in front of you but not widely publicized if you can escape your trained bias. This is an incredible story.

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#30

Post by Fnoord »

garmaine wrote: post #28
lsiebert wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not actually a documentary, more like a loose semi fictional adaption of a book.

He's talking about the 2004 documentary series on TV.

Thanks, yes I was. I haven't read the book.

The documentary was broadcasted on Channel 4, part 1 of 3 series, "Crazy Rulers of the World (2004)". You can probably find it in some torrent.

Ingo Swann [1] is perhaps one of the more notorious remote viewers. Worth looking into him, and his experiments.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingo_Swann

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