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Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

theguardian.com

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Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#21

Post by SQueeeeeL »

aschatten wrote: post #18

Another "boeing still uses floppy disk" article, but this one reads like an ad for the company mentioned. They answers their own question: Emergency response units talked by two-way radio and sent each other text messages with photos of paper maps, said Kenneth Dueker, the director of Palo Alto’s office of emergency services. “Here we are right in the middle of Silicon Valley,” Dueker said. “Why am I using paper and…

Yeah, but after you give this startup 50 million dollars, I'm sure their system will have no glitches!

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#23

Post by e_d_e_v »

hatsunearu wrote: post #17
rsync wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a firefighter/EMR in California. There is nothing wrong with two way radios, per se . The issue is the FCC "typing" rules that disallow a single device operating on multiple, disparate frequency bands. Imagine I respond to a car accident and need to call for a helicopter and arrange a landing zone. In this situation, I will be juggling four brick sized radios throughout the duration of that call.[1] Possibly whi…

One of the proposed benefits of 4G/5G is that they can make microcells that can do exactly that, with the client devices being regular phones.

Well, it seems ridiculous to say that, because there have been 3g microcells (openbsc, for example) forever. It seems bizarre that we couldn't have a switch in every truck that turns it into a mobile microcell for <$100. The backhaul is the problem, because normal microcells are connected to the internet via hardline IP communication . . . . which could be done with modern satellite. The problem is that if you are selling anything to any kind of government agency, you absolutely want them _not_ to be able to use any commodity component like a "cell phone"

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#24

Post by xnx »

tomc1985 wrote: post #14

I really hate seeing articles like these. There are many reasons why groups may not choose to participate in the endless technology death march that is updates and instability. Is the new fancy tool reliable? Does it truly fit into its adopter's workflow? Is it faster and simpler and more reliable than existing tech? Or is it just shiny and backed by some idiot VC and they're trying to push adoption prematurely? This…

Agree, paper maps and two-way radios are both technology. The burden is on any other technology to prove they are superior.

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#25

Post by klyrs »

frogblast wrote: post #4
Aloha wrote: post #2

As someone who builds telecommunications systems for first responders, I'm not convinced that a chat service, and online technology is better than narrowband 2-way radio, and paper maps. These backcountry places often have no cell service, and paper maps don't have technical difficulties - and are easy/cheap to duplicate and hand out, in addition to being naturally rugged. So this means, expensive non-terrestrial com…

I'm not involved in firefighting, I just spend a lot of time with maps planning out hikes: I find that paper maps are dramatically better for me than anything on a screen, simply because they can be so much bigger and higher resolution at the same time. It is far easier to get a feel for an area on a table-top sized map printed at high PPI than on my 4K 27" monitors. As for rapidly tracking the fire perimeters: Despi…

When I was in search and rescue, we made extensive use of paper maps. Nice rite-in-the-rain jobbers, useful in a downpour. And sometimes we'd need to take notes on them. With a pencil! In the rain! grumble grumble kids these days. Try that with a capacitive touchscreen...

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#26

Post by AtlasBarfed »

I hope not to trivialize things too much, but firefighting almost seems like a RTS game, especially if one can get drones/satellite/etc to provide real time updates to the "game map".

Even if there is the command chain that disrupts direct communication with your "units", the communication down the chain could probably be automated from the interface.

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#27

Post by rsync »

Aloha wrote: post #20
rsync wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a firefighter/EMR in California. There is nothing wrong with two way radios, per se . The issue is the FCC "typing" rules that disallow a single device operating on multiple, disparate frequency bands. Imagine I respond to a car accident and need to call for a helicopter and arrange a landing zone. In this situation, I will be juggling four brick sized radios throughout the duration of that call.[1] Possibly whi…

There is nothing in Part 90 that prevents a multi-band device, Motorola, Harris and Kenwood both sell multiband P25 devices (V/U, U/800, V/LTE, et al). Motorola, Harris and Kenwood (tait as well) also support multiple trunking/signaling systems on the same device as well. What you're running into is agencies not wanting to interop - GMRS is a special case, because its a licensed by rule service (Part 95), but everyth…

Yes, there are multi-frequency devices, but they are all in the same "range" or "band" or "grouping" of frequencies (whatever it is we're calling that).

I'm talking about a combination hi-band, lo-band, GMRS, P25, paging, etc. radio. I should be able to tune National Weather Service on it if I want to.

When I talk about this, ham guys get all huffy about FCC this and that and what kind of anarchy do I want to live in. Whatever.

What I am telling you is that, on the ground, it's a shitshow (with regard to physical radios) and it's frustrating to know that it's a political problem, not a technical one.

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#28

Post by duiker101 »

klyrs wrote: post #25
frogblast wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not involved in firefighting, I just spend a lot of time with maps planning out hikes: I find that paper maps are dramatically better for me than anything on a screen, simply because they can be so much bigger and higher resolution at the same time. It is far easier to get a feel for an area on a table-top sized map printed at high PPI than on my 4K 27" monitors. As for rapidly tracking the fire perimeters: Despi…

When I was in search and rescue, we made extensive use of paper maps. Nice rite-in-the-rain jobbers, useful in a downpour. And sometimes we'd need to take notes on them. With a pencil! In the rain! grumble grumble kids these days . Try that with a capacitive touchscreen...

I am one of the kids of these days, but I know absolutely nothing about anything so I don't mean this in a mean spirited way but I am genuinely curious:

if you have paper in the rain, can't you have a water resistant device? Generally, they are both thing that I wouldn't necessarily associate with doing well in the rain...

Re: Paper maps, two-way radios: how firefighting tech is stuck in the past

#29

Post by klyrs »

duiker101 wrote: post #28
klyrs wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in search and rescue, we made extensive use of paper maps. Nice rite-in-the-rain jobbers, useful in a downpour. And sometimes we'd need to take notes on them. With a pencil! In the rain! grumble grumble kids these days . Try that with a capacitive touchscreen...

I am one of the kids of these days, but I know absolutely nothing about anything so I don't mean this in a mean spirited way but I am genuinely curious: if you have paper in the rain, can't you have a water resistant device? Generally, they are both thing that I wouldn't necessarily associate with doing well in the rain...

My phone works fine in the rain. The touchscreen is garbage, because it can't differentiate my finger from a puddle on the screen. Granted, there are pressure sensitive touchscreens out there. If you want a good map that you can take notes on, you'll need a custom app. In my experience, writing on screens is very fussy business. So you might be able to a custom app, custom hardware, maybe spending thousands per unit.

But, paper. I mentioned a brand name. It's wonderful stuff, nothing like the paper you're thinking of. This solution costs a few bucks per person.

https://www.riteintherain.com/

Edit: this "rain" crap is a digression from the "fire" problem. I don't have experience there, but I imagine "the electric infrastructure and cell towers burnt down" is more of an issue... again, paper and pencil wins.

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