FWIW Network-manager depends on dbus, and dbus hard depends on systemd for some years now.
Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script
21–30 of 47 posts
Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script
#22This whole argument is a bullshit argument. I have, somewhat grudgungly I'd admit -- slowly come around to the idea that systemd might be worth the trouble. That said, there is room for more than one working configuration pattern, especially provided those patterns provide non-redundant featuresets to their respective configurations.
The last point of bitterness for me with this entire issue is the entirely uneccesary contention and strife with continuing to include sysV init. It's loved by many and used by many, just leave it alone and let the users patch it.
Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script
#23I don't understand why it needs to be so political. IMO, yes, he shouldn't remove it but there are reasonable alternatives such as another maintainer setting up a network-manager-sysvinit package that just includes the script (like git-daemon-sysvinit) or even an entirely new package such as network-manager-sysv containing the same files and the script. Then everyone can be happy - the said maintainer can live on wit…
Corollary: The most advanced forms of democracy have the most tendency of descending to something akin to a playground bickering
I think the GR is pretty clear but that doesn't seem to be the 1st time that Debian maintainers act like they own the ball and are going home with it.
Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script
#24Will this be something that downstream maintainers like Ubuntu etc will be able to keep going easily, or will it basically hobble them as well over the next few years?
Ubuntu have also switched to systemd so they are unaffected by this issue.
Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script
#25FWIW Network-manager depends on dbus, and dbus hard depends on systemd for some years now.
> dbus hard depends on systemd
That doesn't seem to be the case, the dbus package only depends on libsystemd0 and installing dbus in a clean chroot doesn't pull in systemd.
$ apt-cache show dbus | grep Depends | grep -o ...systemd. | sort -u
libsystemd0Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script
#26I submitted this as being interesting because I feel it is a turning point in Debian's long init wars. The most recent Debian General Resolution on init support said something like "we chose systemd but compatibility with other inits is important" It did not clarify whether a package maintainer was allowed to remove working SysV init support and refuse to add it back, and this is now what is happening here, so I thin…
I haven't followed Debian in recent years, but I thought the technical committee had said that maintainers were not to remove working sysvinit support nor refuse patches for it, unless the package itself was clearly tied to the specific init system?
https://bugs.debian.org/746715
> For the record, the TC expects maintainers to continue to support the multiple available init systems in Debian. That includes merging reasonable contributions, and not reverting existing support without a compelling reason.
Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script
#27I can understand the maintainer saying that they need people to test it because they run systemd and therefore don't have a system running another init system to test on. I can't understand removing working support. Maybe split the SysV support into another package that is maintained by someone who is able and willing to spend the time testing it under other init systems.
It is fairly trivial to test other init systems using virtual machines, booting off another installation on USB or even by installing the other init system and rebooting. Also, delegating the testing to those using sysvinit and NM would have been just fine too.
Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script
#28I submitted this as being interesting because I feel it is a turning point in Debian's long init wars. The most recent Debian General Resolution on init support said something like "we chose systemd but compatibility with other inits is important" It did not clarify whether a package maintainer was allowed to remove working SysV init support and refuse to add it back, and this is now what is happening here, so I thin…
Worth clarifying, only to be precise: "Systemd but we support exploring alternatives" was what was said in the GR (Choice B in https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 ) So while alternatives could be supported, I guess it's up to the maintainer to decide if these chose to do so. In this case, the maintainer didn't want to, but could of course provide some better argument than "I didn't feel like it and it wasn't a…
> "I guess it's up to the maintainer"
When you have a high-level direction set by the organisation, you can't have it arbitrarily overridden by individuals with no discussion and no justification. This permits individuals who act against the overall interests of the organisation in persuit of their own agendas to dictate its path simply by being obstructive or contrary. This is not being a team player, or in fact playing fair at all.
Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
Worth clarifying, only to be precise: "Systemd but we support exploring alternatives" was what was said in the GR (Choice B in https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 ) So while alternatives could be supported, I guess it's up to the maintainer to decide if these chose to do so. In this case, the maintainer didn't want to, but could of course provide some better argument than "I didn't feel like it and it wasn't a…
> "I guess it's up to the maintainer" When you have a high-level direction set by the organisation, you can't have it arbitrarily overridden by individuals with no discussion and no justification. This permits individuals who act against the overall interests of the organisation in persuit of their own agendas to dictate its path simply by being obstructive or contrary. This is not being a team player, or in fact pla…
Well, to be fair, the guideline ended up being A) Support systemd and B) Explore alternatives if you want to. In this case, the author chose to do A and not B. That's following the high-level direction and not overriding anything.
Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script
#30Crikey; filing an NMU without any particular notice is not the act of someone trying to keep the peace. I'm no expert in Debian policy but surely the good form approach is to submit the patch to the bug report and give the maintainer a week to think about it. I'd love to see SysV init support continued, but that NMU request isn't helping. Maybe try harder with the negotiating first. There could be context outside the…
Lets get some perspective here. This change actively and intentionally broke working systems. Let that sink in before considering the severity of the problem and the appropriateness of the actions.