Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

IBAHRI condemned UK treatment of Julian Assange in US extradition trial

ibanet.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 59 posts

Re: IBAHRI condemned UK treatment of Julian Assange in US extradition trial

#21

Post by tenbino »

shadowprofile77 wrote: post #16
tenbino wrote: post #6

People don’t care because he’s “a bad guy”. That’s where we’ve got to. Trouble is people aren’t brought up with an understanding of how things should be in a fair and just society. They’re brought up with some mucky mixed up perception that the world is some mashup of Hollywood and what the media says. There’s no moral compass for society any more. My personal take is he’s some sort of weird Russian asset and he’s a…

>there's no moral compass for society anymore What? And there was more of such a compass a century ago when lynchings were much more common for "racial defilements"? Or two centuries ago when slaves were considered bad by the general public for escaping from the brutality of ownership? Or perhaps 600 years ago when witch burning was remarkably common in much of Europe? Not criticizing your defense of Assange (his tre…

The fact that society isn’t perfect doesn’t dispel my point.

It’s easy to dispel any argument by hand waving and saying “but look at all these other problems therefore you’re wrong!”

I stand by the assertion that 60/70 years ago western society had a more unified sense of what is right and wrong.

No doubt there were some major missing elements of that but the point stands.

Re: IBAHRI condemned UK treatment of Julian Assange in US extradition trial

#22

Post by shadowprofile77 »

mcherm wrote: post #8

I can't think of a special reason why the UK would have it in for Julian Assange. I presume they are doing this in order to cow towel to their ally the United States. Do they not realize that the United States is likely to undergo a regime change at the beginning of next year? Do they think the new regime in the US will feel the same way about Julian Assange and will put the same kind of pressure on the UK that the T…

I see nothing at all about the potential new Democrat government in the U.S that indicates it would in the least bit reduce its stupid, petty, vengeful prosecution efforts against Assange.

A fundamental loyalty to protecting the superiority of the U.S state and its military power/secrets is a firm tenet of both major parties. Obama never budged on Assange, or Snowden and what would make the even less flexible-minded Biden likely to go against the grain?

If anything, Trump winning is Assange's (or Snowden's) best hope, because so long as he has nothing to immediately lose in the form of electoral points, he's exactly the kind of arrogant that would love a grandiose gesture of clemency just to stick it to political rivals and look "edgy". Something similar to what made him push for the talks with N. Korea. (I have a hard time picturing Hillary Clinton having seriously considered such a thing)

Re: IBAHRI condemned UK treatment of Julian Assange in US extradition trial

#23

Post by throwaway0a5e »

ahelwer wrote: post #14
meroes wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should I care so much more about his physical and mental maltreatment by the legal system over the other millions experiencing the same everyday? If you asked why public discourse ignores this in general I would understand. Making no claims about his guilt or innocence.

There are, of course, atrocities everywhere all the time. Change generally isn't sparked by routine atrocities rumbling along in the background though, but by people coalescing around specific atrocities that gain high profile for whatever reason (largely random) which serve as an avatar for all the others. So I suspect you have it backwards: the mistreatment of others isn't a reason to dismiss Assange's complaint, b…

>Change generally isn't sparked by routine atrocities rumbling along in the background though, but by people coalescing around specific atrocities that gain high profile

Exactly.

Taylor and Shaver are people worth rioting over. Instead we've got protests because some much less sympathetic people were killed in less inflammatory (though obviously still pretty terrible) circumstances. Not exactly what civil liberties advocates were hoping for but there's no reason not to roll with it because maybe the cops will finally be reigned in a little (hopefully a lot but the government always drags its feet about curtailing its enforcers).

Assange might be an asshole weirdo but if he's what gets us reform then why not take it?

Re: IBAHRI condemned UK treatment of Julian Assange in US extradition trial

#24

Post by Chris2048 »

tenbino wrote: post #6

People don’t care because he’s “a bad guy”. That’s where we’ve got to. Trouble is people aren’t brought up with an understanding of how things should be in a fair and just society. They’re brought up with some mucky mixed up perception that the world is some mashup of Hollywood and what the media says. There’s no moral compass for society any more. My personal take is he’s some sort of weird Russian asset and he’s a…

Let me say that Trump is a swaggering, incompetent. Let me also say that I am unsure about how much more I should dislike him on the basis that most of what I know about Trump comes from the media.

Stuff like this demonstrates the media is used to sway public opinion via manufactured narratives; its a bit like the Gell-Mann amnesia effect: If I see clear manipulations if the things I know, I should distrust the same publications in those topics of which I am less familiar, or have no secondary source. The smear of sex-crime allegations, and invocation of the Russian/foreign power boogieman are a suspiciously strong part of the "political establishment" modus operandi.

As such, I'm apprehensive to hate someone for such allegations, b/c I don't know how much I'm being led. Sadly, this suspicious, and willing to give a high benefit-of-doubt to a person like Trump will get me branded a mindless supporter by anti-Trump people primed to believe in the "MAGA crowd" stereotype.

We should all suspect the political theatre, and attempt to figure out the script.

Re: IBAHRI condemned UK treatment of Julian Assange in US extradition trial

#25

Post by Diggsey »

mcherm wrote: post #8

I can't think of a special reason why the UK would have it in for Julian Assange. I presume they are doing this in order to cow towel to their ally the United States. Do they not realize that the United States is likely to undergo a regime change at the beginning of next year? Do they think the new regime in the US will feel the same way about Julian Assange and will put the same kind of pressure on the UK that the T…

> Do they not realize that the United States is likely to undergo a regime change at the beginning of next year?

It's far too early to count on Trump losing the election... In my estimation, there's still over 50% chance he'll be re-elected. All he needs is for some Covid metric to show improvement, and he'll claim that as a win at the key moment. And economically, due to the weaker lockdown measures, the US will come out ahead of many other countries.

The media is (yet again) far too eager to sell you the idea that "he can't possibly win", and as long as people continue to buy that, he (and people like him) will continue to be elected.

Re: IBAHRI condemned UK treatment of Julian Assange in US extradition trial

#26

Post by johnnyfaehell »

> According to his lawyers, Mr Assange was handcuffed 11 times; stripped naked twice and searched; his case files confiscated after the first day of the hearing; and had his request to sit with his lawyers during the trial, rather than in a dock surrounded by bulletproof glass, denied.

Stripped naked and search is standard custody practice. Criminals hide things and are known to smuggle things in and out of court to prison. And remember, he is techincally a criminal. He broke criminal law when he skipped bail. He is being held in custody, it seems fair for standard policies to apply to him. Why would he be any different?

It is standard for someone to sit in the dock, why would he deserve special treatment. He is able to confer with his lawyers when he needs to from the dock as many other people have done so in the past and will do so in the future.

The only issue I have is them taking his case files, which seems petty. But I suspect there would have been operational reasons, but why those reasons couldn't have been worked around seems odd and again petty.

While I think he doesn't deserve to be sent to the US and should not be. The fact, he is a criminal and is in custody because he can't be trusted does mean he should be treated as such a manner.

Re: IBAHRI condemned UK treatment of Julian Assange in US extradition trial

#27

Post by [deleted] »

meroes wrote: post #12
theobeers wrote: post #5

It sickens me how little it seems to matter to people in our mainstream discourse whether or not Assange is treated as a human being. After he was removed from the Ecuadorian embassy, and officials said he had behaved erratically there and smeared feces on the walls, etc., the public reaction was along the lines of, “Wow, what a weirdo loser”—rather than, “Oh God, what have we done to this person?” It speaks poorly o…

Why should I care so much more about his physical and mental maltreatment by the legal system over the other millions experiencing the same everyday? If you asked why public discourse ignores this in general I would understand. Making no claims about his guilt or innocence.

[deleted]

Re: IBAHRI condemned UK treatment of Julian Assange in US extradition trial

#28

Post by gadders »

luckylion wrote: post #20
mcherm wrote: post #8

I can't think of a special reason why the UK would have it in for Julian Assange. I presume they are doing this in order to cow towel to their ally the United States. Do they not realize that the United States is likely to undergo a regime change at the beginning of next year? Do they think the new regime in the US will feel the same way about Julian Assange and will put the same kind of pressure on the UK that the T…

> Do they think the new regime in the US will feel the same way about Julian Assange and will put the same kind of pressure on the UK that the Trump administration presumably has? The pressure came from the Obama administration, the Trump administration just kept it up. I don't see any reason to believe that Biden would be substantially different.

I don't think he is especially popular with Hillary Clinton either, given the role that wikileaks played in leaking her campaign's emails.

Re: IBAHRI condemned UK treatment of Julian Assange in US extradition trial

#29

Post by shadowprofile77 »

tenbino wrote: post #21
shadowprofile77 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there's no moral compass for society anymore What? And there was more of such a compass a century ago when lynchings were much more common for "racial defilements"? Or two centuries ago when slaves were considered bad by the general public for escaping from the brutality of ownership? Or perhaps 600 years ago when witch burning was remarkably common in much of Europe? Not criticizing your defense of Assange (his tre…

The fact that society isn’t perfect doesn’t dispel my point. It’s easy to dispel any argument by hand waving and saying “but look at all these other problems therefore you’re wrong!” I stand by the assertion that 60/70 years ago western society had a more unified sense of what is right and wrong. No doubt there were some major missing elements of that but the point stands.

A "unified sense" of right and wrong was often exactly the problem with many societies in history, because they often fall into absolutism and simplistic notions of morality. I'd call our more nuanced and diverse views of what's moral in today's society an improvement, not the opposite.

If anything, a case like Assange's just 60 years ago would have much more easily been condemned as simple treason and with wide U.S public approval of either a long prison sentence or the death penalty, on the grounds of then much more prevalent and simplistic "patriotic" sentiments in society. Today, there's far more divergent debate on this that is exactly why so many across internet and media defend his actions despite this despicable rigidness from the court.

Re: IBAHRI condemned UK treatment of Julian Assange in US extradition trial

#30

Post by Chris2048 »

mcherm wrote: post #8

I can't think of a special reason why the UK would have it in for Julian Assange. I presume they are doing this in order to cow towel to their ally the United States. Do they not realize that the United States is likely to undergo a regime change at the beginning of next year? Do they think the new regime in the US will feel the same way about Julian Assange and will put the same kind of pressure on the UK that the T…

I'd assume the agencies behind all this might not change. A new government doesn't radically restructure the FBI etc, though it might alter some priorities.

Also, any US gov probably appreciates national serfdom..

Post reply on HN