Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

politico.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 493 posts

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#21

Post by danenania »

Barrin92 wrote: post #9
_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

Seems to have a long tradition. I'm still baffled by how little punishment there was for Iran-Contra, key people were simply pardoned by Bush, or how little punishment there was for the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture, just looking at the pictures of the wikipedia article makes me want to throw up.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law.

It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree.

I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still structurally closer to feudalism than actual democracy.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#22

Post by ahelwer »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #17
_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

Be careful what you wish for. Mandatory sentencing removes any possibility of judicial discretion. And then there's the problem that gaol tends not to reform people.

For crimes like this it isn't a matter of "reform" in the same way as when dealing with regular anti-social behavior by individuals. These are people who have been given huge amounts of resources and trust then betrayed us all. I would be very happy for them to be permanently banned from any position in government for the rest of their lives. Instead, nothing happens to them and they fail upwards.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#23

Post by brlewis »

danenania wrote: post #21
Barrin92 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to have a long tradition. I'm still baffled by how little punishment there was for Iran-Contra, key people were simply pardoned by Bush, or how little punishment there was for the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture, just looking at the pictures of the wikipedia article makes me want to throw up.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

Question for history buffs: What are some instances where you'd say, "Gee, I'm glad Presidential pardon was available"?

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#24

Post by macspoofing »

Barrin92 wrote: post #9
_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

Seems to have a long tradition. I'm still baffled by how little punishment there was for Iran-Contra, key people were simply pardoned by Bush, or how little punishment there was for the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture, just looking at the pictures of the wikipedia article makes me want to throw up.

>I'm still baffled by how little punishment there was for Iran-Contra

I'll tell you why you're baffled. Those kinds of issues tend to be very complicated because the world is complicated and messy. However people don't do well with grey and nuance, so instead they try to map it to something they can get a handle on that match their world-view and ideology and reinforce by reading highly partisan summaries (where the opinion just so happens to match their own) and staying in a bubble with other like-minded partisans.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#25

Post by ed25519FUUU »

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

What updates does the US constitution need? I think if we were to rewrite it today it would become largely the same, maybe with a footer that says “and this time we really mean it”

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#26

Post by segfaultbuserr »

brlewis wrote: post #23
danenania wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

Question for history buffs: What are some instances where you'd say, "Gee, I'm glad Presidential pardon was available"?

The standard answer, of course: a war, especially after a national civil war, prosecuting everyone who participated in the enemy's side will be a disaster.

Also whistleblowing cases.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#27

Post by jgust »

brlewis wrote: post #23
danenania wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

Question for history buffs: What are some instances where you'd say, "Gee, I'm glad Presidential pardon was available"?

Throwing out a prediction: If the Biden/Harris ticket wins in 2020 and Trump is charged with anything, expect a pardon from the president. People will rage for a bit, get tired, run out of attention span, and move on to the next controversy.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#28

Post by johnnyo »

brlewis wrote: post #23
danenania wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

Question for history buffs: What are some instances where you'd say, "Gee, I'm glad Presidential pardon was available"?

The general amnesty granted to Confederate soldiers at the end of the Civil War, though not without controversy, was an important step in the reunification of the nation.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#29

Post by keanebean86 »

johnnyo wrote: post #19
_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

The problem with your idea is that the court is sometimes weighing/balancing competing rights and responsibilities from separate parts of the Constitution. For example, when is a church’s hiring practice an equal protection violation? Or is it an exercise of freedom of religion?

That gives me an idea for some big time controversy. Pass a law that says your religion can override specific laws such as hiring discrimination. In exchange for those freedoms the government now gets to enforce your religion's rules on your followers if you're not doing it. Or at least the government can fine/sue your organization for failure to enforce the rules.

That's such a bad idea but it would cause so much juicy drama. I would take a year of that over 2020.

Edit: fixed misspelling of rules, had rupes

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#30

Post by AndrewBissell »

brlewis wrote: post #23
danenania wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

Question for history buffs: What are some instances where you'd say, "Gee, I'm glad Presidential pardon was available"?

Obama commuting Chelsea Manning's sentence was good although I'd have preferred to see a full pardon.
Post reply on HN