When do you want it to be ok?
When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)
21–30 of 146 posts
Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)
#22Scenarios 1 & 2 are pretty obvious, and 3 is not about the lawyer at all. Makes sense though since you're unlikely to hear any criticism of the profession in a publication by the ABA.
Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)
#23These are interesting scenarios, but let's not forget that the rules are only binding under the threat of being caught and punished. They aren't like the laws of physics. So if a lawyer isn't supposed to engage in trickery, they might do so anyway, especially if they think they can get away with it and their client happens to be a rich criminal who pays them extra to do shady stuff. Source: Lawyers wouldn't have the…
> Source: Lawyers wouldn't have the reputation they do if all the members of the club had integrity.
Somewhat off-topic, but here's a mind-boggling example of a lawyer's lack of integrity:
Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)
#24How is a court-appointed defense attorney supposed to do his job if he knows his client is guilty?
In the vast majority of cases the public defender's job isn't really to defend the client but to negotiate a good guilty plea.
Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)
#25These are interesting scenarios, but let's not forget that the rules are only binding under the threat of being caught and punished. They aren't like the laws of physics. So if a lawyer isn't supposed to engage in trickery, they might do so anyway, especially if they think they can get away with it and their client happens to be a rich criminal who pays them extra to do shady stuff. Source: Lawyers wouldn't have the…
> Lawyers wouldn't have the reputation they do if all the members of the club had integrity.
While it's true that some lawyers are unethical some of the time, it seems highly unlikely that lawyers are unethical as often as their reputation suggests. A much more likely explanation is:
1. The complexity of the law.
2. The incongruity between the law and many people's ethical codes.
3. The skill gradient that exists among lawyers, as it does in any profession.
4. The limited resources afforded to public defenders.
5. The limited success pro se litigants typically have.
Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)
#26These are interesting scenarios, but let's not forget that the rules are only binding under the threat of being caught and punished. They aren't like the laws of physics. So if a lawyer isn't supposed to engage in trickery, they might do so anyway, especially if they think they can get away with it and their client happens to be a rich criminal who pays them extra to do shady stuff. Source: Lawyers wouldn't have the…
> Source: Lawyers wouldn't have the reputation they do if all the members of the club had integrity. Somewhat off-topic, but here's a mind-boggling example of a lawyer's lack of integrity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_D._Murphy
It doesn't even need to be due to "poor" intentions, either.
For example, a lawyer who thought she was doing the right thing and protecting many people has caused endless problems, both legal and moral, and likely ended up protecting (by tainting the case against) the very people she sought to bring to justice.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Gobbo#Lawyer_X_scandal
Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)
#27These are interesting scenarios, but let's not forget that the rules are only binding under the threat of being caught and punished. They aren't like the laws of physics. So if a lawyer isn't supposed to engage in trickery, they might do so anyway, especially if they think they can get away with it and their client happens to be a rich criminal who pays them extra to do shady stuff. Source: Lawyers wouldn't have the…
> Source: Lawyers wouldn't have the reputation they do if all the members of the club had integrity.
Calling that "source" is a bit of a stretch, no? More like "hypothesis"
Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)
#28These are interesting scenarios, but let's not forget that the rules are only binding under the threat of being caught and punished. They aren't like the laws of physics. So if a lawyer isn't supposed to engage in trickery, they might do so anyway, especially if they think they can get away with it and their client happens to be a rich criminal who pays them extra to do shady stuff. Source: Lawyers wouldn't have the…
> Lawyers wouldn't have the reputation they do if all the members of the club had integrity. While it's true that some lawyers are unethical some of the time, it seems highly unlikely that lawyers are unethical as often as their reputation suggests. A much more likely explanation is: 1. The complexity of the law. 2. The incongruity between the law and many people's ethical codes. 3. The skill gradient that exists amo…
And TV. Real life lawyering isn’t nearly interesting enough so writers have to zhush it up by having lawyer characters operate in the grey area or completely cross the line as a matter of course. It’s more exciting that way!
Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)
#29My wife is an attorney, family law, and it's clear from the years of stories and discussions on what's she has dealt with that most attorneys lie with impunity ... and so do the litigants going to court! The judges generally don't hold the liars accountable, the attorneys don't hold the other attorneys accountable, and no one holds the judges accountable ... and with no real accountability, it's a free for all. If the State Bars would hold their own members to their own supposed standard we'd be in a much better place.
Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)
#30These are interesting scenarios, but let's not forget that the rules are only binding under the threat of being caught and punished. They aren't like the laws of physics. So if a lawyer isn't supposed to engage in trickery, they might do so anyway, especially if they think they can get away with it and their client happens to be a rich criminal who pays them extra to do shady stuff. Source: Lawyers wouldn't have the…
> Lawyers wouldn't have the reputation they do if all the members of the club had integrity. While it's true that some lawyers are unethical some of the time, it seems highly unlikely that lawyers are unethical as often as their reputation suggests. A much more likely explanation is: 1. The complexity of the law. 2. The incongruity between the law and many people's ethical codes. 3. The skill gradient that exists amo…
I know a lot of lawyers. Most lawyers in law firms are just as unethical just as often as their reputation suggests. There are high-integrity lawyers out there, and if you find one, cling onto them. They're out there, but they're rare.
A much more likely explanation are misaligned incentive structures, combined with a protective guild-like bar organization which lawyers belong to.