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Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

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Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#21

Post by autisticcurio »

tptacek wrote: post #11

This calls to mind a lot of what McWhorter says about Shakespeare --- that it's an emperor's new clothes situation, we're only pretending we can understand 16th century English, but really not getting any of the original intent because none of the references make sense, and that if we really want to understand what those works mean, we need to update the language. If you read interviews Headley has given, you get the…

I sometimes wonder if some of the references to the mythical beasts like fire breathing dragons are simply, some now extinct species of animal with embellishments like fire breathing. Lets face it, oral tradition came with a certain degree of embellishment and we know dinosaurs used to exist, but what's the chances of finding the remains of an extinct animal if we tried to look for it? Perhaps the Dodo would be an exception as, iirc, they last lived on an island somewhere killed by sailors for food, but hopefully you get my point. I doubt many skeletal remains would be found with Anglo-Saxon remains because none have been found so far, but do archaeologists looking for Anglo-Saxon remains ignore animal remains during the dig process? Its not something I'm familiar with.

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#22

Post by autisticcurio »

acqq wrote: post #15
saagarjha wrote: post #2

I'm not sure I can understand the strange juxtaposition of "modern" language with thousand-year-old meter.

What is jarring to me are always the anachronisms. E.g. while I can imagine that some form of short "bro" could have existed earlier, when I read the line using "sushi" I can't help but remembering that "sushi" didn't exist until recently. Then I feel cheated, knowing that the original form said something with the different meaning, and I'm aware that I can't know what it is reading the "modern" "retelling". Another…

Dats sick bro!

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#24

Post by drbw »

_ZeD_ wrote: post #20

Was I the only one reading the title and thinking about the Beowulf cluster[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_cluster

No, but now I'm thinking about the early days of Slashdot, when "imagine a beowulf cluster of those" was a common in-joke. Along with the obligatory dozen claiming to be "frist".

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#25

Post by steve_gh »

shakna wrote: post #14
morelisp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emily Wilson's translation of the Odyssey is similar in goal (flowing English, modern imagery, "scrap[ing] away all the centuries of verbal and ideological buildup") though not quite the same tone - Greek theater isn't the Saxon tavern, after all. https://www.emilyrcwilson.com/the-odyssey

> "Rosy-fingered dawn, in this new version, takes on many minor variations. “When early Dawn revealed her rose-red hands.” “The early Dawn was born; her fingers bloomed.” My favorite rendering is “Soon Dawn appeared and touched the sky with roses.” It is so wonderfully delicate. It evokes, beautifully, the sky’s subtle changes at first light: how the colors phase in mildly, almost imperceptibly, the way a piece of wh…

If you want to understand where Homer comes from, the bardic traditions,and his cultural importance, I can highly recommend Adam Nicolson's "The Mighty Dead: Why Homer Matters". It is both really insightful and a cracking read.

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#26

Post by ecdavis »

acqq wrote: post #15
saagarjha wrote: post #2

I'm not sure I can understand the strange juxtaposition of "modern" language with thousand-year-old meter.

What is jarring to me are always the anachronisms. E.g. while I can imagine that some form of short "bro" could have existed earlier, when I read the line using "sushi" I can't help but remembering that "sushi" didn't exist until recently. Then I feel cheated, knowing that the original form said something with the different meaning, and I'm aware that I can't know what it is reading the "modern" "retelling". Another…

A strange aspect of our written culture is the extent to which documents are imbued with a sense of permanence from which they cannot easily escape. Beowulf was told and retold for at least decades - more likely centuries - before someone decided to write it down. Now, retellings[0] of the story are called translations, judged by many for their accuracy and historicity.

Sashimi's been around for a long time. "Gravlax" would've been less alliterative.

[0] It's telling that you put that word in quotes. Stories are things to be told, aren't they?

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#27

Post by 082349872349872 »

cousin_it wrote: post #18

A page comparing many many many translations of Beowulf: http://www.paddletrips.net/beowulf/html/journey.html One particular prose translation that I like: http://oaks.nvg.org/beowulf.html As an aside, I don't understand why people translating works of martial glory choose rap as the modern equivalent. People who actually fight in wars, from ancient times to now, tend to talk in "high" language.

(a) Anglo-saxon poetry was beat-oriented and heavy on alliteration, wordplay, and external references. Why would rap[1] not be a suitable[2] choice?

(b) "People who actually fight in wars ... have always spoken in a more dignified[3] way." Pray tell, in which country's military have you served?

[1] it's done more than Milton could: popularised poetry in the hood.

[2] A cousin thread mentions "... an age when the sword was as fair and just as the High Court is today," which reminds me that the gangsta subgenre is slightly fonder of popping caps than filing briefs. (Compare OG Sinatra's "My Way" for commercially successful overclass braggadocio. Or, more recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTU2He2BIc0 )

[3] Those who prefer their argot middle class might try Nice Wicket Average's "Straight outta Surrey": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSflRlHPay4

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#28

Post by DC-3 »

numlocked wrote: post #8

I’m no scholar, but have a distinct memory of reading the Heaney translation of Beowulf perhaps 20 years ago (it was new at the time). I don’t recall any of the language per se, but have the distinct memory of thinking “this is extremely badass”. It seems completely reasonable that a more vernacular translation would be in some meaningful way more accurate (if not precise). This article brought back some of the adren…

I'm also a huge fan of Heaney's Beowulf. While Headley chooses to vernacularise the language in the extreme, Heaney took a more sensitive approach, preserving kennings and searching for Ulster dialect cognates to Old English words to use in their stead, and always being careful to shun the aloof Latinate for the earthy Germanic. The consequence of his success is that the text seems to have sprung forth from the bloodied earth, the capricious sea, and the smoke-clogged longhouses of the tale.

So while I am always happy to see new editions of Beowulf, I can't help but feel that Headley's will feel a little trivial by way of its own unselfconcious anachronism. A wergeld seems an absurd concept when cast in the language of the iPhone, but when depicted in language that is sympathetic to its context it feels deeply natural - of the earth, even - a rightful price to pay as atonement for the shedding of blood, in an age when the sword was as fair and just as the High Court is today.

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#29

Post by martopix »

morelisp wrote: post #9
082349872349872 wrote: post #3

Shots from the updated trailer for the Iliad : Paris - fanning golden apple slices off his palm Bitch is mine, yo! Achilles - Hos before bros. Patroclus hypes Athena - Not much slumming with the mortals where r u :eyes::owl: Hector - slomo in drifting chariot Odysseus - Same thing we do every night, Ajax. Try to sack Troy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqMs9WsJg2k

Emily Wilson's translation of the Odyssey is similar in goal (flowing English, modern imagery, "scrap[ing] away all the centuries of verbal and ideological buildup") though not quite the same tone - Greek theater isn't the Saxon tavern, after all. https://www.emilyrcwilson.com/the-odyssey

"Greek theater": the Iliad was never theatre.

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#30

Post by goto11 »

autisticcurio wrote: post #21
tptacek wrote: post #11

This calls to mind a lot of what McWhorter says about Shakespeare --- that it's an emperor's new clothes situation, we're only pretending we can understand 16th century English, but really not getting any of the original intent because none of the references make sense, and that if we really want to understand what those works mean, we need to update the language. If you read interviews Headley has given, you get the…

I sometimes wonder if some of the references to the mythical beasts like fire breathing dragons are simply, some now extinct species of animal with embellishments like fire breathing. Lets face it, oral tradition came with a certain degree of embellishment and we know dinosaurs used to exist, but what's the chances of finding the remains of an extinct animal if we tried to look for it? Perhaps the Dodo would be an ex…

I think you are messing up the timescales. Beowulf is about a thousand years old, while dinosaurs lived hundreds of millions of years ago.
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