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Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes

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Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes

#21

Post by gmuslera »

jjcon wrote: post #6

I think it is important that we all take a second to realize that surveillance can be a reasonable apparatus of a well maintained democracy. We should strive to have proper checks and balances on those powers rather than pretend they are not useful or do not exist. With proper checks surveillance can greatly improve national security but it should be kept to that domain and we should seek to prevent abuses. I think u…

Organizations are made of people, at all levels. You are not trusting or not of an abstract entity, you are dealing with a lot of people that you don't know from the present and the future, any of them that can use or abuse of the information they are gathering, in individual level or more related to policy level, or act based on that information.

Also it is not about crime, is about control, for whatever agenda they have now or later. And the lack of Snowden level leaks in 7 years hints at which point they have control now.

Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes

#22

Post by aborsy »

Surveillance pertains to asymmetric information, a situation where a few in the society (those in power) have access to the information of the rest of the society (those not in power, namely, the public) but not conversely.

The asymmetry of the information gives those in power great advantage over public. The rich and powerful claim, we monitor you to protect you, and to better serve you. The scope and the characteristics of the surveillance, the incentives and the historical evidence don’t support this claim. The harm is far more than potential benefits. The public should reread David Hume and stand up against this threat.

Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes

#23

Post by baybal2 »

jjcon wrote: post #6

I think it is important that we all take a second to realize that surveillance can be a reasonable apparatus of a well maintained democracy. We should strive to have proper checks and balances on those powers rather than pretend they are not useful or do not exist. With proper checks surveillance can greatly improve national security but it should be kept to that domain and we should seek to prevent abuses. I think u…

> With proper checks surveillance can greatly improve national security

Take a look at the past 20 years. Your argument is hollow. Ladens don't keep diaries on Facebook, and foreign spooks don't use email, no, they don't use computers as such.

With the amount of silly foreign policy blunders in between the EU, and the US shows more than anything that US doesn't seem to benefit at all from wiretapping governments of their allies.

That whole premise is invalid.

Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes

#24

Post by eivarv »

The Norwegian parliament recently passed a bill that implements bulk metadata collection here as well.

I tried debating with ministers, writing op-eds, and even organizing petitions (over 1000 security, privacy and tech professionals in a couple of days) before the vote. While every informed person I know thinks it's a bad idea, and every organization consulted massively criticized it as mass surveillance, a huge majority of our nation's decision makers apparently disagreed.

Watching video from the proceedings made me realize just how few of them have any real understanding both of the practical consequences of the technical implementation, as well as of privacy in and of itself (my jaw was literally agape from some comments).

How can we do something about this sorry state of things when politicians are not only ignorant, but ignorant of their ignorance – and unwilling to listen to experts that are critical?

Besides using privacy-preserving technologies, how can we work against this on a technical level?

Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes

#25

Post by zionic »

aborsy wrote: post #22

Surveillance pertains to asymmetric information, a situation where a few in the society (those in power) have access to the information of the rest of the society (those not in power, namely, the public) but not conversely. The asymmetry of the information gives those in power great advantage over public. The rich and powerful claim, we monitor you to protect you, and to better serve you. The scope and the characteri…

What I don't see many talk about is how much harm the belief that they harvest everything is, on top of just the actual deed itself.

If I am an organization that is well known to be spying on everyone and anything, that means I can very convincingly fabricate evidence against my enemies. It goes beyond simple spying, they now have the ability to manufacture whatever truth they'd like.

Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes

#26

Post by chrisco255 »

jjcon wrote: post #6

I think it is important that we all take a second to realize that surveillance can be a reasonable apparatus of a well maintained democracy. We should strive to have proper checks and balances on those powers rather than pretend they are not useful or do not exist. With proper checks surveillance can greatly improve national security but it should be kept to that domain and we should seek to prevent abuses. I think u…

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Mass surveillance is an absolute power. We can't prevent any abuses. The state is doing what they want without regards for the constitution. The FISA abuses in the US have proven that.

Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes

#27

Post by twblalock »

aborsy wrote: post #22

Surveillance pertains to asymmetric information, a situation where a few in the society (those in power) have access to the information of the rest of the society (those not in power, namely, the public) but not conversely. The asymmetry of the information gives those in power great advantage over public. The rich and powerful claim, we monitor you to protect you, and to better serve you. The scope and the characteri…

One way around this is to make surveillance records available to the public through due process like other public government records.

This removes the asymmetry and it also makes surveillance less attractive in the first place, because those responsible for the surveillance would be forced to expose surveillance records about themselves.

Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes

#28

Post by eivarv »

zionic wrote: post #25
aborsy wrote: post #22

Surveillance pertains to asymmetric information, a situation where a few in the society (those in power) have access to the information of the rest of the society (those not in power, namely, the public) but not conversely. The asymmetry of the information gives those in power great advantage over public. The rich and powerful claim, we monitor you to protect you, and to better serve you. The scope and the characteri…

What I don't see many talk about is how much harm the belief that they harvest everything is, on top of just the actual deed itself. If I am an organization that is well known to be spying on everyone and anything, that means I can very convincingly fabricate evidence against my enemies. It goes beyond simple spying, they now have the ability to manufacture whatever truth they'd like.

Though not exactly what you're referring to, my impression is that people discuss the chilling effect [0] quite a bit.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect#Chilling_effec...

Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes

#29

Post by TaylorAlexander »

twblalock wrote: post #27
aborsy wrote: post #22

Surveillance pertains to asymmetric information, a situation where a few in the society (those in power) have access to the information of the rest of the society (those not in power, namely, the public) but not conversely. The asymmetry of the information gives those in power great advantage over public. The rich and powerful claim, we monitor you to protect you, and to better serve you. The scope and the characteri…

One way around this is to make surveillance records available to the public through due process like other public government records. This removes the asymmetry and it also makes surveillance less attractive in the first place, because those responsible for the surveillance would be forced to expose surveillance records about themselves.

That may slightly chip away at asymmetry but it doesn’t remove it. For one, if only LEO officers decide who gets surveillance then mysteriously senators who misbehave won’t get surveillance but poor people will.

Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes

#30

Post by dsbleia »

I'm asking this question not to spark a contentious debate or be ridiculed. But I'm genuinely curious, as someone who has little experience with China and only lived in the US, is the US just as much of a surveillance state as China?

We often hear a lot of 'information' (bordering propaganda), about China being an "authoritarian surveillance state". I don't mean to sound absurd, but is the US that much better in terms of authoritarianism or surveillance? If so, why?

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