NASA Gives Up on LISA • Hacker News Board

Re: NASA Gives Up on LISA

#21

Post by prawn » Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 6:52 AM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #4

ars wrote: post #3

That's too bad. Gravity waves are one of the last unknowns in science that we also know how to study. (Most other unknowns we don't know how to study.) I've always wondered, we have rich foundations doing all kinds of good - do any of them try to step in and fill budgets of this sort?

Well, we've still got LIGO carefully looking for gravity waves. So far we haven't detected any. Maybe it'd be a good idea to make one hundred percent sure that they actually exist (or else that they're definitely below the limits of LIGO) before building another expensive instrument. There's no real hurry. Gravity waves will still be there in twenty years time if we feel like building LISA.

"will still be there in twenty years time"

I'm impatient with space exploration and research obviously because the scales involved make it likely that many great achievements won't occur during my lifetime.

So that and your line remind me of:

"The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago. The second best time is now."

Re: NASA Gives Up on LISA

#22

Post by prawn » Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 7:08 AM UTC

wladimir wrote: post #17

ars wrote: post #3

That's too bad. Gravity waves are one of the last unknowns in science that we also know how to study. (Most other unknowns we don't know how to study.) I've always wondered, we have rich foundations doing all kinds of good - do any of them try to step in and fill budgets of this sort?

To me (as an outsider) it looks as if the USA, en masse, doesn't believe in science anymore. So many interesting research projects have been stopped lately, education is being crippled, and other avenues of education and research are being killed for religious reasons. We owe so much to science in our daily lives, why are (common) people so reluctant to see that? Or is the issue deeper. Do people hate the current, fa…

People want immediate results. Investing in something that won't necessarily bring results for years or decades (or centuries in the case of space exploration) is rarely going to be popular.

At least here in Australia, a common comment on something like this is that we shouldn't spend money on this sort of thing when there are people starving and dying in the third world. Then the typical comments on, say an article about, the plight of the poor in the third world are critical of throwing money abroad when we have problems of our own at home. Then the typical comments on those problems (say, gap in life expectancy between that of the Aboriginal population and the average) find another excuse.

It frustrates me too. I'd love to see military budgets (as one example) plowed into aggressive space research and exploration (as well as third world problems) and uniting the planet.

Maybe the Great Filter of the Fermi Paradox is just the tendency of the masses towards selfish, lazy, basic instinct-driven behaviour.

Re: NASA Gives Up on LISA

#23

Post by robryan » Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 7:20 AM UTC

mturmon wrote: post #5

juiceandjuice wrote: post #2

This has been feared for a while in that community. There's quite a bit of animosity towards the JWST for soaking up NASA's budget in recent history, and JWST is trying to do some serious damage control because they're too far along and too big to fail. I saw John Mather (Nobel prize winner) give a talk recently that was basically "Look how far we are, and we're sorry for soaking up the budget."

More on the JWST overrun: http://www.spacenews.com/civil/101112-jwst-cost-imperils-pri...

Given the amount spent a launch failure would be pretty catastrophic for the JWST.

Re: NASA Gives Up on LISA

#24

Post by robryan » Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 7:23 AM UTC

prawn wrote: post #22

wladimir wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me (as an outsider) it looks as if the USA, en masse, doesn't believe in science anymore. So many interesting research projects have been stopped lately, education is being crippled, and other avenues of education and research are being killed for religious reasons. We owe so much to science in our daily lives, why are (common) people so reluctant to see that? Or is the issue deeper. Do people hate the current, fa…

People want immediate results. Investing in something that won't necessarily bring results for years or decades (or centuries in the case of space exploration) is rarely going to be popular. At least here in Australia, a common comment on something like this is that we shouldn't spend money on this sort of thing when there are people starving and dying in the third world. Then the typical comments on, say an article…

I wish Australia would spend some more money on space based projects, imagine if the US decided not to make any major investment into space, the planet as a whole would be getting nowhere on space based research projects.

Re: NASA Gives Up on LISA

#25

Post by ars » Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 7:24 AM UTC

prawn wrote: post #22

wladimir wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me (as an outsider) it looks as if the USA, en masse, doesn't believe in science anymore. So many interesting research projects have been stopped lately, education is being crippled, and other avenues of education and research are being killed for religious reasons. We owe so much to science in our daily lives, why are (common) people so reluctant to see that? Or is the issue deeper. Do people hate the current, fa…

People want immediate results. Investing in something that won't necessarily bring results for years or decades (or centuries in the case of space exploration) is rarely going to be popular. At least here in Australia, a common comment on something like this is that we shouldn't spend money on this sort of thing when there are people starving and dying in the third world. Then the typical comments on, say an article…

> I'd love to see military budgets (as one example) plowed into aggressive space research and exploration

Interesting example - because they are. The military is responsible for a lot more research than is immediately obvious. All you have to do is come up with some plausible military use (offense or defense), and you have a chance for funding.

I've seen projects with just the barest hit of possibly being militarily related get funded by the military.

I get the feeling the military knows they are overfunded, and they try to make up for the lack of funding in other places.

Or perhaps the military likes being over funded - so when they need it, they have it. But the rest of the time they can fund other things (and presumably cancel them in an emergency).

Re: NASA Gives Up on LISA

#26

Post by ars » Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 7:27 AM UTC

wladimir wrote: post #17

ars wrote: post #3

That's too bad. Gravity waves are one of the last unknowns in science that we also know how to study. (Most other unknowns we don't know how to study.) I've always wondered, we have rich foundations doing all kinds of good - do any of them try to step in and fill budgets of this sort?

To me (as an outsider) it looks as if the USA, en masse, doesn't believe in science anymore. So many interesting research projects have been stopped lately, education is being crippled, and other avenues of education and research are being killed for religious reasons. We owe so much to science in our daily lives, why are (common) people so reluctant to see that? Or is the issue deeper. Do people hate the current, fa…

It's only temporary. During boom times America funded a lot of science and other worthwhile things.

Right now there is a massive pullback, but when the economy recovers things will restart.

Take a longer view.

Re: NASA Gives Up on LISA

#27

Post by wladimir » Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 7:43 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #26

wladimir wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me (as an outsider) it looks as if the USA, en masse, doesn't believe in science anymore. So many interesting research projects have been stopped lately, education is being crippled, and other avenues of education and research are being killed for religious reasons. We owe so much to science in our daily lives, why are (common) people so reluctant to see that? Or is the issue deeper. Do people hate the current, fa…

It's only temporary. During boom times America funded a lot of science and other worthwhile things. Right now there is a massive pullback, but when the economy recovers things will restart. Take a longer view.

I gave up on believing this is temporary some time ago. We're stuck in a negative feedback loop.

The current crippling of science and education will only hurt the economy more. The economy is not like the weather something that just happens, and that will improve if we just "wait it out".

If anything, it would be helped by massive investments in science and space projects. It injects money in the constructive and innovative parts of society. The focus is too much on Wall Street which are basically toll takers.

Re: NASA Gives Up on LISA

#28

Post by ars » Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 7:46 AM UTC

wladimir wrote: post #27

ars wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only temporary. During boom times America funded a lot of science and other worthwhile things. Right now there is a massive pullback, but when the economy recovers things will restart. Take a longer view.

I gave up on believing this is temporary some time ago. We're stuck in a negative feedback loop. The current crippling of science and education will only hurt the economy more. The economy is not like the weather something that just happens, and that will improve if we just "wait it out". If anything, it would be helped by massive investments in science and space projects. It injects money in the constructive and inn…

How long ago?

Re: NASA Gives Up on LISA

#29

Post by wladimir » Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 7:56 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #28

wladimir wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gave up on believing this is temporary some time ago. We're stuck in a negative feedback loop. The current crippling of science and education will only hurt the economy more. The economy is not like the weather something that just happens, and that will improve if we just "wait it out". If anything, it would be helped by massive investments in science and space projects. It injects money in the constructive and inn…

How long ago?

Around when Bush was re-elected, I think. Although it accelerated in the last recession, this is not something new.

I don't think it's about "the economy" at all. A lot of research has been done during periods of much bleaker economy than there is now. Maybe it was the cold war (and earlier country-level competition) keeping people sharp.

Re: NASA Gives Up on LISA

#30

Post by ars » Fri, Apr 08, 2011, 8:05 AM UTC

wladimir wrote: post #29

ars wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long ago?

Around when Bush was re-elected, I think. Although it accelerated in the last recession, this is not something new. I don't think it's about "the economy" at all. A lot of research has been done during periods of much bleaker economy than there is now. Maybe it was the cold war (and earlier country-level competition) keeping people sharp.

So 6 years? That's not a long time as these things go.

In my question I was going to add that if it's less than 5 years you are not waiting long enough, and 10 is more realistic. (But decided to just leave it as a question.)

The last internet bubble was 10 years ago, and only now are we are starting to talk about about an upswing again. Economic cycles are measured in decades.

Look at this graph: http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/advchart/frames/frames.asp?...

Notice the downturn right before you gave up? Even today we are still not higher than we were in 06. When you start to see the graph look like it does in 88 to 99 then things will turn around.