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Filecoin: Proof of Storage Systems

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21–30 of 53 posts

Re: Filecoin: Proof of Storage Systems

#21
post #6

> We created Filecoin because the amount of data humans generate is exponentially increasing, and we need more efficient ways to store and access it. I don't think Filecoin can be MORE efficient than some of the larger, current systems. I actually think this statement is misleading. It should say that Filecoin's goal is to offer storage options that are distributed (hence redundant), protected from censorship, and po…

Almost by definition, it simply can not be more efficient.

Assuming the FIL storage market is efficient, if the cost of CPU time and energy to run PoRep is less than the premium charged by commercial providers, it's more efficient. That seems plausible to me.

Re: Filecoin: Proof of Storage Systems

#22
post #21
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost by definition, it simply can not be more efficient.

Assuming the FIL storage market is efficient, if the cost of CPU time and energy to run PoRep is less than the premium charged by commercial providers, it's more efficient. That seems plausible to me.

That's an awfully tall and teetering stack of assumptions.

Re: Filecoin: Proof of Storage Systems

#23
post #6

> We created Filecoin because the amount of data humans generate is exponentially increasing, and we need more efficient ways to store and access it. I don't think Filecoin can be MORE efficient than some of the larger, current systems. I actually think this statement is misleading. It should say that Filecoin's goal is to offer storage options that are distributed (hence redundant), protected from censorship, and po…

Almost by definition, it simply can not be more efficient.

it can, if you're using microsoft storage spaces as software raid

Re: Filecoin: Proof of Storage Systems

#24
General question:

when somebody will push into Filecoin some "bad" files (anything, from docs needed by the mafia to children being sexually abused, to fake videos/claims/whatever about you, to any other bad things you can think of), how can that be detected and then deleted? (ignoring here the theme related to accountability)

Question based on https://docs.filecoin.io/introduction/why-filecoin/ :

Filecoin resists censorship because there is no central provider that can be coerced into deleting files or withholding service. The network is made up of many different computers run by many different people and organizations. Faulty or malicious actors are noticed by the network and removed automatically.

In this context I'm not a believer of "automatically".

Re: Filecoin: Proof of Storage Systems

#25

> We created Filecoin because the amount of data humans generate is exponentially increasing, and we need more efficient ways to store and access it. I don't think Filecoin can be MORE efficient than some of the larger, current systems. I actually think this statement is misleading. It should say that Filecoin's goal is to offer storage options that are distributed (hence redundant), protected from censorship, and po…

There are a lot of nuanced ways a trustless distributed system can be more efficient. The article is pretty light on details but consider the content addressing mechanism. The data can be securely served by any device and independently verified by any recipient. The minimum latency of reads is theoretically much lower than the sever/client infrastructure commonly used today. It’s like edge computing with any device t…

> The minimum latency of reads is theoretically much lower than the sever/client infrastructure commonly used today.

This is an oversimplification: it assumes that discovery is very low cost and that there's a peer with a copy enough closer on the network that it's faster than talking to server-class hardware in a data center with a high quality network connection. Given the number of assumptions which need to be true for that to be a net-positive I'm skeptical that it'd be easy to hit anywhere close to the best-case theoretical scenario.

Re: Filecoin: Proof of Storage Systems

#26
post #24

General question: when somebody will push into Filecoin some "bad" files (anything, from docs needed by the mafia to children being sexually abused, to fake videos/claims/whatever about you, to any other bad things you can think of), how can that be detected and then deleted? (ignoring here the theme related to accountability) Question based on https://docs.filecoin.io/introduction/why-filecoin/ : Filecoin resists ce…

In this context, "faulty and malicious actors" would be those who interfere with the operation of the network, e.g. by deleting files they consider "bad".

Re: Filecoin: Proof of Storage Systems

#27
post #24

General question: when somebody will push into Filecoin some "bad" files (anything, from docs needed by the mafia to children being sexually abused, to fake videos/claims/whatever about you, to any other bad things you can think of), how can that be detected and then deleted? (ignoring here the theme related to accountability) Question based on https://docs.filecoin.io/introduction/why-filecoin/ : Filecoin resists ce…

I generally phrase this as “How is this safer than running a Tor exit node?”. If someone uploads illicit material to Amazon, they have enough lawyers & clout to have the FBI send them a letter demanding client information. If this is a peer-to-peer service, you have a non-zero risk that the SWAT team is going to show up at your home/office and demand you prove that you weren't aware of that content. That's going to deter a LOT of people.

Re: Filecoin: Proof of Storage Systems

#28

> We created Filecoin because the amount of data humans generate is exponentially increasing, and we need more efficient ways to store and access it. I don't think Filecoin can be MORE efficient than some of the larger, current systems. I actually think this statement is misleading. It should say that Filecoin's goal is to offer storage options that are distributed (hence redundant), protected from censorship, and po…

There are a lot of nuanced ways a trustless distributed system can be more efficient. The article is pretty light on details but consider the content addressing mechanism. The data can be securely served by any device and independently verified by any recipient. The minimum latency of reads is theoretically much lower than the sever/client infrastructure commonly used today. It’s like edge computing with any device t…

Is this really an advantage of the fact that the system is trustless and the ownership of storage media is distributed? You can an imagine a system where Amazon owns all the hard drive but still distributes/duplicates files across many different hard drives, matching the theoretical performance characteristics of Filecoin. In fact storing data on S3 from my cursory understanding already distributes data across multiple drives based on their durability claims.

Re: Filecoin: Proof of Storage Systems

#29
post #24

General question: when somebody will push into Filecoin some "bad" files (anything, from docs needed by the mafia to children being sexually abused, to fake videos/claims/whatever about you, to any other bad things you can think of), how can that be detected and then deleted? (ignoring here the theme related to accountability) Question based on https://docs.filecoin.io/introduction/why-filecoin/ : Filecoin resists ce…

I think this is a serious problem - but probably not for the exact use case you list (mafia, sexually abused kids).

It should be solved by allowing an "expensive" (a) "vote" (b) to override, or delete, or hide for a number of years.

(a): expensive should discourage the option in general (b): proof-of-stake, proof-of-ownership, proof-of-work are some of the many ways in which you can define voting rights.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work easily in practice. Example:

You created a file (say, a CV, or a newspaper article in PDF) to discredit me, but it's a lie. To me, not having that file publicly accessible would be worth $1,000.

You could blackmail me - give me $1,000 or I'll upload the file! But I think you might do it anyway, so I don't negotiate (never negotiate!!). The file is 1 MB, and it costs $1/year to keep it up and running on Filecoin.

I should have an option to ask a voting pool to remove that file for $100. The pool agrees, and the money gets burned (I shouldn't create any incentive for someone to cash in the amount).

However, you can upload the file again; or a slightly different version, and we are back to square one.

It then goes to the "discoverability" of the file. That part is probably going to be decentralized too, so no court could "order" Filecoin to make a file not discoverable.

How do we solve it? I think there will emerge a search system that provides services to censor, obfuscate, etc, a number of files, based on reasonable requests. Whoever builds that company, I bet it will not be poor.

Re: Filecoin: Proof of Storage Systems

#30
post #15
post #3

That is not what matches my mental model of a "deep dive," but was interesting enough to warrant an upvote For example, the phrase "decentralized marketplace of storage providers and choose the one" was just glossed over -- through what mechanism does one choose a storage provider? Is there an API that (for example) a container storage interface provider could consume? like that kind of "choose a provider"? I also wo…

Ok, we'll swap a prefix for a suffix of the title above. (Submitted title was "Deep Dive into Filecoin".)

Good call. I should have thought of a better (submission) title in the first place.
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