Computing belongs within the social sciences • Hacker News Board

Re: Computing belongs within the social sciences

#21

Post by aruss » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

travisoneill1 wrote: post #17

kbit wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think that, even from a strictly scientific perspective, more exchange of knowledge between computer science and social sciences would be good? Isn't it a shame that, for example, social media platforms don't benefit from the decades of research in social science to create a platform that's more beneficial for society? They hit roadblocks and cause problems which could have been easily prevented with this k…

When have those decades of research ever actually been applied to "create a platform that's more beneficial for society?"

You're joking right? You're proving the article's point. The social sciences have informed policymakers for decades. The US was founded by social scientists (as TFA defines them, the social sciences include philosophy and so on).

Re: Computing belongs within the social sciences

#22

Post by AnimalMuppet » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

By the same argument, chemical engineering belongs with biology, because the chemicals produced (and their byproducts) impact biological systems. Which is true, but it still doesn't mean that the two disciplines should be lumped together.

Computing may need more exposure to social sciences, but it absolutely does not belong within the social sciences. (More accurately, product management or program management needs more exposure to the social sciences - those who decide what programs are going to do and how they're going to interact with people and society. Computing in general - algorithms, programming techniques, and so on - doesn't even need that.)

Re: Computing belongs within the social sciences

#23

Post by rmrfstar » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:39 PM UTC

norswap wrote: post #13

kbit wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think that, even from a strictly scientific perspective, more exchange of knowledge between computer science and social sciences would be good? Isn't it a shame that, for example, social media platforms don't benefit from the decades of research in social science to create a platform that's more beneficial for society? They hit roadblocks and cause problems which could have been easily prevented with this k…

I don't think the issue with big social networks (and other big tech actors) is one of ignorance. It seems to me many of the bad things they do are very deliberate. Sometimes the things they don't care about are also very deliberate. Google is perhaps the champion of causing harm by not caring about things. This is sometimes ascribed as being caused by their "engineering-centric culture", but I fail to see how engine…

Try to avoid generic phrases like "causing harm".

"Google is the champion of circumventing long established norms, such as the prohibition on wiretapping, and evading responsibility for doing so" says a lot more than "causing harm".

Re: Computing belongs within the social sciences

#24

Post by jonnypotty » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

I like the idea that we should make the fact that it isn't real science concrete so people know what they're getting into.

Allying it with the bit of universities that have abandoned any idea of the value of ideas being linked to actual evidence though is a terrible idea.

Make it part of the engineering department, those guys get the meeting place between a technical discipline and something that has to actually exist in the real world.

Re: Computing belongs within the social sciences

#25

Post by jonnypotty » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

kbit wrote: post #6

growlist wrote: post #3

Translation: 'We are horrified that Computer Science students - some of whom might go on to be the next tech billionaires - are managing to get through university without being completely brainwashed by leftist demoralisation!'

Don't you think that, even from a strictly scientific perspective, more exchange of knowledge between computer science and social sciences would be good? Isn't it a shame that, for example, social media platforms don't benefit from the decades of research in social science to create a platform that's more beneficial for society? They hit roadblocks and cause problems which could have been easily prevented with this k…

Entities and disciplines can communicate without being the same. An idea we seem to be losing, not in small part thanks to social science.

Re: Computing belongs within the social sciences

#26

Post by tzs » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:43 PM UTC

Do CS students not already take social sciences classes as part of the general degree requirements at their university?

At MIT, every undergraduate is required to eight courses in arts, humanities, or social sciences. That works out to taking one arts, humanities, or social science class per semester. Specifically, you have to take one from art, one from humanities, and one from social science. You also have to pick a particular field and take a series of courses in that field.

Caltech is similar, but not quite as structure. Every undergraduate must take 36 units of humanities (Caltech has a different unit scale than most others--one term of most classes earns you 9 units, and there are 3 terms per academic year) , 36 units of social science, and 36 units of humanities or social sciences.

For someone who took the minimum number of units possible to get a CS degree at Caltech, 22% of their coursework would be in humanities or social sciences. 20% for someone who took the average CS course load.

I'd just assumed that it was like that at most other schools too.

Re: Computing belongs within the social sciences

#27

Post by aruss » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

travisoneill1 wrote: post #16

verdverm wrote: post #2

Wow, ACM is taking a reputability hit for this piece. Who's editing that publication now? If it were how the social sciences need to embrace computing, that would be a legitimate claim from my experience at University.

That's impractical. The social "science" students would never be able to pass classes that involve real math.

Take it from a former mathematician, the computer "science" students wouldn't either.

Re: Computing belongs within the social sciences

#28

Post by kbit » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:48 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #15

norswap wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the issue with big social networks (and other big tech actors) is one of ignorance. It seems to me many of the bad things they do are very deliberate. Sometimes the things they don't care about are also very deliberate. Google is perhaps the champion of causing harm by not caring about things. This is sometimes ascribed as being caused by their "engineering-centric culture", but I fail to see how engine…

Strongly agreed. Exposure to social sciences won't fix problems caused by your business model, because market competition is stronger than individual morals. Even if you decide not to proceed in harmful way, there will be a competitor who's less moral and will corner the market in your place. The more I participate in the "tech won't fix social problems" kinds of discussions, it dawns on me that it's not the tech tha…

I agree that the market economy is the underlying problem of it all. However, I wouldn't completely dismiss computer scientists' lack of knowledge in social science as part of the reason. I'm hopeful enough to think that, knowing the incredible harm the software they are writing could inflict on other people or society as a whole, some computer scientists would be less willing to participate in it.

Re: Computing belongs within the social sciences

#29

Post by kbit » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

jonnypotty wrote: post #25

kbit wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think that, even from a strictly scientific perspective, more exchange of knowledge between computer science and social sciences would be good? Isn't it a shame that, for example, social media platforms don't benefit from the decades of research in social science to create a platform that's more beneficial for society? They hit roadblocks and cause problems which could have been easily prevented with this k…

Entities and disciplines can communicate without being the same. An idea we seem to be losing, not in small part thanks to social science.

> not in small part thanks to social science.

I'm genuinely curious what you are referring to here?

Re: Computing belongs within the social sciences

#30

Post by noslenwerdna » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:06 PM UTC

aruss wrote: post #19

ericmay wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't you think that, even from a strictly scientific perspective, more exchange of knowledge between computer science and social sciences would be good? Hmm. Not necessarily. If you're speaking strictly from the point of view of sharing knowledge, well, there's nothing really stopping that now. But if we're talking about moving computer science departments into social science departments under the pretext of shari…

Physicists and mechanical engineers simply do not wield the same amount of power that computer scientists/software engineers do. FYI the article does not suggest literally putting CS in the social science department. TFA is just arguing that in light of how CS is applied in society, computer scientists need to be more broadly educated. I was a cryptography PhD student for awhile and I can tell you by-and-large CS aca…

On the contrary it's easy to make this argument for physics.

Would physicists have developed the atomic bomb if they had been required to take a few extra courses in social sciences and if physics departments had an extra multi-disciplinary professorship? I don't believe this would have made any difference.

The suggestions are at the same time radical and pointless. Arguably he is simply trying to colonize other fields, as he accuses CS of doing.