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ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

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Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#21

Post by me_me_me »

ahelwer wrote: post #17

I've been getting deep into the home office ergonomics hole now that I'll be working from home indefinitely. There's a real danger here - I generally pride myself as someone who is conscientious of consumerist tendencies, but it's become clear that my drive for better ergonomics is no longer about the actual facilitation of work or avoidance of injury. I have spent more time researching ergonomic setups than could ev…

> Shoveling in expensive ergonomic equipment is little different from shoes or bags or guns or radios or funko pops.

It is and it isn't. It depends if/when you stop. I just got $250 keyboard. My last one was also in that range. Though it lasted me around 10 years.

I don't think its evil wanting to have nice things. Its problem when 'you life to buy things, not buy things to live.'

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#23

Post by lxdesk »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #3

Is there any science when it comes to ergonomy and tall keys? I would expect tall keys to be more damaging to wrists over time due to awkward position and longer travel time.

Most of stress injury derives from the "time under tension" component which is not necessarily a matter of key travel distance. In this case it's a combination of switch mechanism and keycaps. Flat and light keycaps have less force at rest than tall, heavy keycaps. A higher resting force means the needed activation force is lower. In both cases, the switch is governing how much force is needed in total, and whether there's a "tactile bump" indicating activation before the switch bottoms out completely.

When the switch bottoms out, it's like your fingers have hit a wall: this is the norm with most membrane switch designs, and with linear mechanical switches, which are usually light. With tactile and clicky switches, the concept is to reduce bottoming out by indicating the activation with heavier force partway through the downstroke. A pairing of heavy keycaps and heavy tactile switches is often considered satisfying for typists because then the heft of the switch has been balanced out; a light tap will fling the key down past the tactile bump and spring it up without the same degree of muscle activation as a linear switch. And it is possible to have "too heavy" keycaps for the switch, which simply won't work(always activated).

With the key height, as well, what will matter is tension at rest, which will depend on overall posture. In theory you move the keyboard down if the keys are taller.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#24

Post by me_me_me »

m463 wrote: post #13
mofeien wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned that the proper way to type is with your hands floating above the keyboard, and resting your hands on a wrist rest when not typing. I don't always do it, but when I do, the height of the keyboard relative to the table becomes irrelevant, instead it's more about height of keys relative to my shoulders and maintaining right angled elbows. Also, to me the Moonlander keyboard and its keycaps do not seem particu…

I use a wrist rest as well. It's hard to get a good wrist rest - they seem to last for a month or a year on amazon, and when I want to re-order, they are unavailable. I have a memory foam one about 3-4" deep and the width of the keyboard. It is soft enough, lifts and supports my wrists and keeps them warm. I think the wrist support on this moonlander keyboard is a good idea, but making it out of cold, hard plastic do…

I find gel wrist rest better. It has less give while still feeling soft to my wrists.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#25

Post by Red_Leaves_Flyy »

drewm1980 wrote: post #22

At that price it's in competition with fully contoured (i.e. not flat) mechanical keyboards.

Yeah. It Looks cool, some nice features. But splits with most of these features can be had for $150 or less, so I don't really see the appeal of spending 200 more without a commensurate doubling of functionality, ergonomics, etc.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#26

Post by frostburg »

splitpremium wrote: post #15

Why do split keyboards charge a premium? Microsoft makes contoured keybords for 100usd. In India great quality mech keyboards costs $40, you bang it all day on games and it lasts. I can pay for innovation but this style is old

Lower volume (also quality is bottomless hole, I know people that own PVD coating equipment because they find that the kind of finish taht you can buy isn't good enough). I have built myself a couple of Nyquist ortho splits and with my even lower volume I spent even more despite providing the labor and part of the design work.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#27

Post by ledauphin »

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #25
drewm1980 wrote: post #22

At that price it's in competition with fully contoured (i.e. not flat) mechanical keyboards.

Yeah. It Looks cool, some nice features. But splits with most of these features can be had for $150 or less, so I don't really see the appeal of spending 200 more without a commensurate doubling of functionality, ergonomics, etc.

can you provide some examples?

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#28

Post by Theodores »

I appreciate that there is a market for ergonomic fancy keyboards, but can't we just get the standard keyboard right?

I wish that there was a keyboard company out there that focused on standard keyboards with attention paid to supporting all locales. Choice for the US consumer might be great but elsewhere in the English speaking world you start getting compromises. Essentially you can get a US keyboard with a few of the keycaps moved around. What you actually want is more than that, things like a double height enter key.

I dread to think what keyboard layout crimes go on outside the English speaking world.

Now, tenkeyless. Having the number pad is great if you do a lot of book-keeping but for most people it is not needed. If you are left handed then it makes as much sense as a fish with a bicycle.

But getting to know the jargon - 'tenkeyless' and 'tkl' is a journey in itself. If you are using your keyoboard to type words then you do want the keys for navigation - Page Up, Page Down, Home, End, Delete - plus the arrow keys. But mini keyboards just mess with the layout to maybe give you half the standard keys in non-standard places.

So, effectively 'tkl' plus a non-US locale means you are going to have a limited choice.

Now let's put in a few other common requirements - backlighting, wireless and wired operation, coffee proofing and silent operation. You can't get all these things with a non US locale and a 'tkl' keyboard. Sure there are many switch variants and fancy LED lighting schemes with ghastly keycap designs, but if you just want standard layout then it isn't going to happen.

It is sad to see Logitech, Microsoft and others offer us compromised designs that cost either a pittance of serious money. Why can't there just be a manufacturer that goes for the niche of standard ISO rather than ergonomic, or with too few keys, or with some emphasis on buckling spring style feel?

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#29

Post by steveklabnik »

nwah1 wrote: post #2

Why does it need to contain an actual ARM processor?

Need to? It doesn't. Why might users care? Well, the kinds of people who are into custom keyboards often use custom firmware too... while this keyboard advertises QMK support, if I don't like QMK and want to use something else, which chips are inside matters.

Making this even more concrete, I am in the market for some new keyboards, and at least one of them is one I'd like to write my own firmware for. Rust is far more supported on ARM chips than on some of the other popular chips that are used to build keyboards, and so knowing this has one makes me more likely to buy it than others. I don't want this specific keyboard, so it isn't a win for me, but there are surely dozens of folks like me, dozens!

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#30

Post by RedBeetDeadpool »

This is pretty cool. I was thinking about ordering and building a dactyl manuform [1] after my latest upgrade, the kyria [2] which improved the inflammation in my index fingers, failed to truly solve my issues because they put my thumbs in a very contorted position. I love how you can rotate the thumb keys as its unnatural to have your thumbs press keys in the same direction as the rest of your fingers.

Having started with very generic ergonomic keyboards, and now progressing to hand built keyboards have taught me that if you are experiencing some sort of tendon, nerve, or joint issues from standard keyboard use, you really need to dive into the deep end and get the most ergonomic thing out there even if $300 for a keyboard, when you can buy one for under $20, sounds incredibly expensive. If you don't, you'll likely end up paying that much to just keep fixing or improving the situation. And if you don't try to fix the situation you'll pay for it in damage to your hands which to me has no monetary value* .

I might still choose to build the manuform, but it's nice that there's an option out there with adjustable thumb keys, I've never seen that before and I hope it becomes a trend in the split ergonomic keyboard world.

[1] https://tomoakley.me/article/2020/01/1-month-with-the-dactyl...

[2] https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the-kyria

* okay, maybe there is an exact amount in terms of how much money you can no longer make through typing ability that is lost, but my point is there is an intrinsic value to having fully functional hands.

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