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Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

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21–30 of 58 posts

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#21
Something is a bit fishy (okay I’m stretching this a bit).

TFA discusses all the subsidies and other forms of help from Chinese government, then toward the end it says

Still, China is hardly the worst offender when it comes to such subsidies, which ocean conservationists say, through over-capacity and illegal fishing, are a major reason that the oceans are rapidly running out of fish. The countries that provide the largest subsidies to their high-seas fishing fleets are Japan (20 per cent of the global subsidies) and Spain (14 per cent), followed by China, South Korea, and the United States, according to Sala's research.

First, kinda weird the percentage stats just stopped at Spain, making it impossible to put things into perspective.

Secondly, if Chinese fleets with all the alarming-sounding numbers only place at the third, what are the Japanese and Spaniards doing here? What about their fleet sizes? (Btw, IMHO the number of vessels may be a poor measurement of fleet size, compared to, say, total displacement; we all know how 17,000 little dinghies would compare to 300 aircraft carriers, to give an extreme example.) Do they have even larger fleets? Or do they pay more subsidies per head (or per vessel? or ton of product?) for whatever reason? Unfortunately TFA doesn’t discuss any of that.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#22
post #20
post #7

I know this article is about the waters off Korea, but I noticed a similar thing flying over the South China Sea, in particular the Tokyo-Bangkok route. Flying late at night over the SCS, and then peering out the window from 40k ft, you see endless lights - thousands and thousands of them. At first I thought I was over land, but then checked the map. The next trip I noticed the same thing, and then the same. It was l…

Many of those ships have crews that are part of the People’s Armed Forces Maritime Militia (PAFMM). The militia are organized and commanded directly by the PLA's local military commands. They don't normally carry weapons, but they have military communications equipment and readiness to support PLA Navy. https://www.andrewerickson.com/2016/03/chinas-maritime-milit...

How different is that from the US Coast Guard's (and especially regular merchant ships whose crews are part of the Coast Guard Reserve's) wartime function? I would suppose that all organized merchant-marine escort fleets are trained to cooperate/coordinate with their country's Navy; if not just to "get the heck out of the way, this area is about to be under attack."

Also, AFAIK, it's a de-facto "law of the sea" that pretty much all ships with transponders—no matter the flag they fly—will willingly act as relays for other ships that cannot communicate, in order to facilitate search-and-rescue. Same with planes. It's a whole part of their signalling codes.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#23
post #3
post #2

China and North Korea appear to have a side-deal for fishing rights which violates U.N. economic sanctions against North Korea.

I think UN should have a vote about it to decide on the panelty. Oh wait, it was veto'ed again. UN like a League of Nations is rather a sad joke (well, apart from peace keeping missions).

The UN is a paper tiger by design, at the core its nothing more then a forum for UN permanent members to talk with each other. And to make sure red lines are well defined and not accidentally being crossed.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#24
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The UN hasn’t prevented nuclear war, it’s accomplished virtually nothing in its long history. Last "nuclear war" was on 9 August 1945. UN formed on 24 October 1945. > Geopolitical reality doesn’t require letting authoritarian regimes chair your human rights committees. Yes, it does. If they have large militaries and/or economies. > The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vo…

Are you not aware of what's going on in Xinjiang? (Or Tibet or to practitioners of Falun Gong or even christianity in China) From the first article of the first charter: > 2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace; > 3. To achieve international co-operation in…

The UN is a diplomatic forum, it's not a western global hegemony mechanism. Or, at least, not these days anymore.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#25
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The UN hasn’t prevented nuclear war, it’s accomplished virtually nothing in its long history. Last "nuclear war" was on 9 August 1945. UN formed on 24 October 1945. > Geopolitical reality doesn’t require letting authoritarian regimes chair your human rights committees. Yes, it does. If they have large militaries and/or economies. > The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vo…

There hasn’t been a nuclear war since the Cleveland Rams last NFL championship. The correlation is just as apt. As far as preventing war in general, the Korean War, Vietnam, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the Falklands, two gulf wars, Russian invasion of Ukraine, etc, etc. UN mediation is no more effective than any other major power mediation efforts in history, in fact it can be argued the UN has been less effectiv…

Would learning that the diplomatic channels of the UN were some of the methods used to relay information during, for example, the Cuban middle crisis change your opinion? The comparison seems to lack historical context, the UN has been involved into international diplomatic actions relating to nuclear war far more than any footballers.

I think the “spreading democracy” mindset is wholly unsubstantiated, as most of the wars you mentioned were predicated on either preserving or spreading democracy. If we need war to prevent war, it seems that there can be no peace.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There hasn’t been a nuclear war since the Cleveland Rams last NFL championship. The correlation is just as apt. As far as preventing war in general, the Korean War, Vietnam, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the Falklands, two gulf wars, Russian invasion of Ukraine, etc, etc. UN mediation is no more effective than any other major power mediation efforts in history, in fact it can be argued the UN has been less effectiv…

Would learning that the diplomatic channels of the UN were some of the methods used to relay information during, for example, the Cuban middle crisis change your opinion? The comparison seems to lack historical context, the UN has been involved into international diplomatic actions relating to nuclear war far more than any footballers. I think the “spreading democracy” mindset is wholly unsubstantiated, as most of th…

There is no peace as long as authoritarian regimes threaten democratic nations and their own peoples.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#27
post #22
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of those ships have crews that are part of the People’s Armed Forces Maritime Militia (PAFMM). The militia are organized and commanded directly by the PLA's local military commands. They don't normally carry weapons, but they have military communications equipment and readiness to support PLA Navy. https://www.andrewerickson.com/2016/03/chinas-maritime-milit...

How different is that from the US Coast Guard's (and especially regular merchant ships whose crews are part of the Coast Guard Reserve's) wartime function? I would suppose that all organized merchant-marine escort fleets are trained to cooperate/coordinate with their country's Navy; if not just to "get the heck out of the way, this area is about to be under attack." Also, AFAIK, it's a de-facto "law of the sea" that…

There are so many of them and they are more closely integrated to PLA.

The encrypted military communication equipment they carry is designed works even during wartime operations under jamming.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#28
post #20
post #7

I know this article is about the waters off Korea, but I noticed a similar thing flying over the South China Sea, in particular the Tokyo-Bangkok route. Flying late at night over the SCS, and then peering out the window from 40k ft, you see endless lights - thousands and thousands of them. At first I thought I was over land, but then checked the map. The next trip I noticed the same thing, and then the same. It was l…

Many of those ships have crews that are part of the People’s Armed Forces Maritime Militia (PAFMM). The militia are organized and commanded directly by the PLA's local military commands. They don't normally carry weapons, but they have military communications equipment and readiness to support PLA Navy. https://www.andrewerickson.com/2016/03/chinas-maritime-milit...

>They don't normally carry weapons, but they have military communications equipment and readiness to support PLA Navy.

How are they supposed to support the PLA navy if all they have is a boat with some military radios? The only thing I can think of is cannon fodder or search and rescue.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#29
post #21

Something is a bit fishy (okay I’m stretching this a bit). TFA discusses all the subsidies and other forms of help from Chinese government, then toward the end it says Still, China is hardly the worst offender when it comes to such subsidies, which ocean conservationists say, through over-capacity and illegal fishing, are a major reason that the oceans are rapidly running out of fish. The countries that provide the l…

The word "research" in the preceding paragraph is a link to said research, and the full text is available here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5990315/

That article also only gives percentages for Japan and Spain, but lists the raw numbers in Table 1 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5990315/table/T... , so the missing percentages for China (10%), South Korea (10%) and United States (6%) can be calculated.

They don't measure fleet size by displacement but by number of vessels: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5990315/figure/... There doesn't appear to be a monotonic relationship between total subsidies and fleet size by that measure (e.g. Taiwan appears second by number of vessels after China but before Japan, despite their subsidies only amounting to 6% of the total).

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would learning that the diplomatic channels of the UN were some of the methods used to relay information during, for example, the Cuban middle crisis change your opinion? The comparison seems to lack historical context, the UN has been involved into international diplomatic actions relating to nuclear war far more than any footballers. I think the “spreading democracy” mindset is wholly unsubstantiated, as most of th…

There is no peace as long as authoritarian regimes threaten democratic nations and their own peoples.

Yes and no. Yes, there is not real peace, and there is not peace even within such nations. That difference (between authoritarian and non-authoritarian) matters.

But no, even with authoritarian regimes in existence, there is a difference between "shooting war" and "no shooting war". That difference matters, too.

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