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Be More Unlikeable

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Re: Be More Unlikeable

#21

Post by crdrost »

Gcached version: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https:...

In terms of the content, I was hoping for more concrete data rather than speculation. I myself come from a worldview where this is somewhat alien, in that, in my understanding of Christianity I am not trying to be this big achiever that the article wants to be. Likeability however is not directly a virtue in itself for us, and indeed our other virtues like being present in the moment and authentic with others sometimes require unlikeable conversation, for example “hey, I noticed that you have been on your phone composing this post to tell someone on the internet that they are wrong for about an hour, and I don't think you are getting as much out of that as maybe you seem to think... maybe let it go and let them be wrong and have the last word and trust that onlookers will judge properly without trying to sway their judgment?” rarely goes over well until sometime gets some more distance from the addiction.

So, like, I would have been really interested in the precise deployment of unlikability to further wisdom, but this article is about the shotgun deployment of unlikability to further personal achievement.

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#22

Post by kirykl »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #16
hrktb wrote: post #5

Money quote: > Personally, I've long idolized Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. But most of our heroes got to where they are by being unlikeable, not likable. I fundamentally disagree with that view of being an asshole as an important part of success, but I also feel it has been rehashed an incredible amount of times already. A slightly different take on this is the "don't rock the boat" mentality. This is usually a counter…

Every co-working venue seems to have at least one idiot wandering around in a black turtleneck being deliberately selfish and rude to everyone. Never seen one of them actually be successful at anything except annoying people. So far my personal "black turtleneck success ratio" is about 100:1 failure/success, and I never met the single success. I include Elizabeth Holmes, who I haven't met either, on the failure side.

They really should be going barefoot if they’re trying to cargo cult their way to success by mimicking Jobs

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#23

Post by melling »

hrktb wrote: post #5

Money quote: > Personally, I've long idolized Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. But most of our heroes got to where they are by being unlikeable, not likable. I fundamentally disagree with that view of being an asshole as an important part of success, but I also feel it has been rehashed an incredible amount of times already. A slightly different take on this is the "don't rock the boat" mentality. This is usually a counter…

Selection bias? Picking 2 people who seem to fit your belief doesn’t prove anything.

Maybe a larger study of people?

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#24

Post by BlahGod420 »

waheoo wrote: post #7
hrktb wrote: post #5

Money quote: > Personally, I've long idolized Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. But most of our heroes got to where they are by being unlikeable, not likable. I fundamentally disagree with that view of being an asshole as an important part of success, but I also feel it has been rehashed an incredible amount of times already. A slightly different take on this is the "don't rock the boat" mentality. This is usually a counter…

Yup, the other popular one is being contrarian. Its a dned epidemic at the moment, I find people arguing things for no other reason than to sound smart bt challenging, usually on a technicality, a really obvious assumption any normal person would take at face value.

Depending on the age of the persons involved, this could actually be healthy. When I first learned about logical fallacies I could not keep my mouth shut. Everyone was a moron and dag nabit I knew exactly why. After a few months of pissing everyone off, I settled down in to a "You can be wrong if you want," kind of mentality.

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#25

Post by softfalcon »

This reminds me of a short documentary called "DICKS: Do you need to be one to be a successful leader?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRRvjZ_XNog

tldr; You don't have to be a dick, but being a strong and passionate leader will result in making tough choices that will inevitably not make everyone happy.

tldr 2; People don't want a boss who is a friend, they want a leader with a vision.

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#26

Post by LinuxBender »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #16
hrktb wrote: post #5

Money quote: > Personally, I've long idolized Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. But most of our heroes got to where they are by being unlikeable, not likable. I fundamentally disagree with that view of being an asshole as an important part of success, but I also feel it has been rehashed an incredible amount of times already. A slightly different take on this is the "don't rock the boat" mentality. This is usually a counter…

Every co-working venue seems to have at least one idiot wandering around in a black turtleneck being deliberately selfish and rude to everyone. Never seen one of them actually be successful at anything except annoying people. So far my personal "black turtleneck success ratio" is about 100:1 failure/success, and I never met the single success. I include Elizabeth Holmes, who I haven't met either, on the failure side.

They just get the order wrong. It's more like, being very successful means you can get away with being an a-hole a bit more. Steve Jobs really put himself in danger doing elevator interviews. That isn't someone I would mimic the behavior of.

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#27

Post by fluffernutter »

waheoo wrote: post #7
hrktb wrote: post #5

Money quote: > Personally, I've long idolized Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. But most of our heroes got to where they are by being unlikeable, not likable. I fundamentally disagree with that view of being an asshole as an important part of success, but I also feel it has been rehashed an incredible amount of times already. A slightly different take on this is the "don't rock the boat" mentality. This is usually a counter…

Yup, the other popular one is being contrarian. Its a dned epidemic at the moment, I find people arguing things for no other reason than to sound smart bt challenging, usually on a technicality, a really obvious assumption any normal person would take at face value.

A contrarian rejects popular opinion, not to be antagonizing, but in an effort to show that group think may be off slightly. It is more an argument about what may be right (or what is dogmatic), than just being difficult to be difficult.

People who are difficult to be difficult are just assholes. Contrarians frequently get put in that bucket, but have different motives. Keep in mind the term is used a lot in investment.

For example, stating children should go back to school this fall works within "popular" demand or belief that masks are a solution to spread. A contrarian would indicate an abundance of caution about what is yet to be known about how this is spread, and that perhaps masks don't exactly work the way we think they do.

Holding a contrary view that masks don't work doesn't make someone an asshole, but it could be viewed that way if the ones who disagree are unable to come to a conclusion contrary to that view based on empirical evidence, and not overwhelming abundance of popular opinion based on irrational understanding.

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#28

Post by borplk »

hrktb wrote: post #5

Money quote: > Personally, I've long idolized Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. But most of our heroes got to where they are by being unlikeable, not likable. I fundamentally disagree with that view of being an asshole as an important part of success, but I also feel it has been rehashed an incredible amount of times already. A slightly different take on this is the "don't rock the boat" mentality. This is usually a counter…

I think one important thing to note is being "unusual" is ONLY celebrated for wildly successful people.

If you make it like Steve Jobs people will over-analyse everything you did and said and try to somehow link that to your success.

If you are not wildly successful people just consider it a boring personal flaw and they will not tolerate your attitude.

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#29

Post by foolmeonce »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #16
hrktb wrote: post #5

Money quote: > Personally, I've long idolized Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. But most of our heroes got to where they are by being unlikeable, not likable. I fundamentally disagree with that view of being an asshole as an important part of success, but I also feel it has been rehashed an incredible amount of times already. A slightly different take on this is the "don't rock the boat" mentality. This is usually a counter…

Every co-working venue seems to have at least one idiot wandering around in a black turtleneck being deliberately selfish and rude to everyone. Never seen one of them actually be successful at anything except annoying people. So far my personal "black turtleneck success ratio" is about 100:1 failure/success, and I never met the single success. I include Elizabeth Holmes, who I haven't met either, on the failure side.

Yeah, but if you ever see someone paying attention to them you know they are talking about something great. If you see people talking to nice people you have to listen and evaluate the ideas yourself.

Re: Be More Unlikeable

#30

Post by 082349872349872 »

ngngngng wrote: post #8
ny2ko wrote: post #3

The only grime I have to pick with this article is it's applicability to all groups. The ability to behave as a jerk or be unlikeable without experiencing retaliation (not simply push back) is a privilege that a lot of underrepresented minorities don't have

> underrepresented minorities To paraphrase Brene Brown, any conversation on privilege that excludes class is bullshit. The ability to be unlikable without it ruining your life (never mind using it to your advantage) is largely a privilege of class. No one in 2020 is immune to being "cancelled". But if you have money, it won't ruin your life.

The list of "non-cognitive" soft skills in one of yesterday's posts contains a substantial number that could be described as "being likeable", and I supposed that made them parochially targeted at children who will need to have a middle-class job: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23809211

As far as cancellation being a 2020 thing, Orwell observed in 1948 that: "As a rule, luckily, there is more than one group, but also at any given moment there is a dominant orthodoxy, to offend against which needs a thick skin and sometimes means cutting one's income in half for years on end."

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html#part50

Diogenes: eating lentils

Aristippus: You know, if you learned to be ingratiating to the king, you wouldn't have to continue eating lentils.

Diogenes: chewing If you learned to eat lentils, you wouldn't have to continue to ingratiate yourself to the king.

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