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Dude, You Broke the Future (2017)

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Re: Dude, You Broke the Future (2017)

#21
post #8

> And once you start probing the nether regions of transhumanist thought and run into concepts like Roko's Basilisk—by the way, any of you who didn't know about the Basilisk before are now doomed to an eternity in AI hell—you realize they've mangled it to match some of the nastiest ideas in Presybterian Protestantism. I wish every discussion of transhumanism didn't have to involve Roko's Basilisk. It's not something…

Your comment (and your links) miss the point of mocking references to "Roko's Basilisk". Whether it's actually a widely-held belief of the Less Wrong/greater rationalist community is irrelevant, it's emblematic of the eye-rolling nonsense that they engage in.

It's the exact secular equivalent of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"[1], which was also not an actual accepted topic of medieval religious scholarly debate but an illustration of the usual absurdity of such debate (e.g., there was an actual centuries-long scholarly discussion of whether angels were sexless or had sexes).

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_t...

Re: Dude, You Broke the Future (2017)

#22
Corporations are nothing but a group of actors working together to achieve some outcome, part of which may be profit, and it's absurd to think that they are a 'Modern Era', or even Western concept as every single land-owning farmer, artisan, banker, merchant in history was de-facto a form of 'corporation'. Moreover, many institutions with origins in antiquity (schools, governments, NGO's) are close enough to the organising principles of corporations that they could be regarded in the same, broad, social categorisation.

His 18th century definition of 'Corporation' fits perfectly with the notion of 'Petit Bourgeois' of history - minor land-holding families, technical guilds, larger artisanal groups. Do we think Athenian 'Trireme' warships were built by a guy and his assistants? No, these were built by well organised groups with specialisation, paid for their work, aka 'Corporations'.

The most interesting thing about these talks are actually social: what kinds of ideas and memes will rise to the fore among people who are aspirationally antagonising, like social anarchists (I don't mean that in a negative sense, I mean that would be the closest technical 'ideal' that defines the a group like 'Chaos Computer Club'). Mohawks, anti-estabishment statements such as 'ardent atheist', and hints of softly anti-corporate ideals.

"Life-span of corporation is shorter, largely due to predation (totally unsubstantiated), corporation's are cannibals, they eat one another (that's an interesting way to describe mergers)."

"For the first century and a 1/2 they depended entirely on human employees" - no, actually, the Industrial Revolution was literally about harnessing the power of fossil fuels via machines to automate that which would have been done by people (or animals) before. Neither humans nor horses moved those trains.

And then of course the dehumanising of governments and corporations as AI: "What do our AI Overlords want?".

I don't believe there is really any relationship between 'corporations' and 'AI', it's a neat idea. What we have here is an intelligent, creative guy with an antagonists worldview, working in a field wherein he's free to make up loose associations and hint at them as they are facts, ad he's subsumed an interesting ideal from CS into his own world view.

I mean, it's great to try ideas that bends our minds a little bit, but I think it's clear he's a writer of fiction.

Re: Dude, You Broke the Future (2017)

#23
post #16

> nastiest ideas in Presybterian Protestantism. And if you follow Charlie's reasoning, that simpler parts, can't lead to a highly advanced intelligence, you come to conclusion intelligence is derived from a divine soul. Intelligence isn't as uncommon as we think, but it takes long time to emerge.

> if you follow Charlie's reasoning, that simpler parts, can't lead to a highly advanced intelligence, you come to conclusion intelligence is derived from a divine soul.

Thats an absolutely ridiculous interpretation. Asserting that our current "simple parts" are still very far from AGI is nowhere even close to asserting that intelligence is immaterial.

Its very, very obvious that there are myriad possible leaps we might need to get closer to intelligence. You can't build an attention network from a perceptron. Its totally reasonable to say that we need a few more fundamental discoveries first. Obvious, even, given the insane amount of processing required to teach a network a language. Brains are clearly wired in a way that is simply more efficient than how we currently know how to build stuff.

Re: Dude, You Broke the Future (2017)

#24
post #9

Robert Miles has an interesting response to the claim that corporations are AIs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5pUA3LsEaw To paraphrase: yes, corporations function as agents, but their maximum performance is limited by the capabilities of their employees. A corporate AI may have a much broader set of skills than any single person, and may be able to tackle many concurrent tasks, but as an "intelligent agent" its d…

I don't think the comparison was to AI as a super intelligence. AI doesn't have to be a super intelligence to be AI or to be dangerous.

I think AS (Artificial Stupidity) will get us first.

Re: Dude, You Broke the Future (2017)

#25

Robert Miles has an interesting response to the claim that corporations are AIs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5pUA3LsEaw To paraphrase: yes, corporations function as agents, but their maximum performance is limited by the capabilities of their employees. A corporate AI may have a much broader set of skills than any single person, and may be able to tackle many concurrent tasks, but as an "intelligent agent" its d…

The buzzwordhood of "AI" has reached a new peaked. If any complex system can just be labelled as AI, then the term is essentially meaningless.

Re: Dude, You Broke the Future (2017)

#26
post #9

Robert Miles has an interesting response to the claim that corporations are AIs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5pUA3LsEaw To paraphrase: yes, corporations function as agents, but their maximum performance is limited by the capabilities of their employees. A corporate AI may have a much broader set of skills than any single person, and may be able to tackle many concurrent tasks, but as an "intelligent agent" its d…

I don't think the comparison was to AI as a super intelligence. AI doesn't have to be a super intelligence to be AI or to be dangerous.

That's fair. I interpreted the comparison as being between "AI implemented as a property of human organizations" and "AI implemented as a powerful search algorithm". While corporations can certainly be dangerous, they're still made of people and thus are unlikely to want to do things like "convert the entire mass of the solar system into dollar bills" (and even if they did, they'd have a hard time doing it). A sufficiently powerful search algorithm would find all sorts of bizarre ways of satisfying its goals. The point is that the scope of the risk is quite different when talking about corporations (order of magnitude: screwing up the environment in pursuit of easy profit) vs "real" AI which, if granted agency, would have potentially unbounded risk.

Another way to look at it is with regards to capacity for self-modification. If a corporation can't re-structure itself into being much smarter than the smartest human, its intelligence is fundamentally limited, and therefore so is the risk. Does software have this restriction? We don't really know yet, but it's hard to point to exactly why it would.

Re: Dude, You Broke the Future (2017)

#27
post #22

Corporations are nothing but a group of actors working together to achieve some outcome, part of which may be profit, and it's absurd to think that they are a 'Modern Era', or even Western concept as every single land-owning farmer, artisan, banker, merchant in history was de-facto a form of 'corporation'. Moreover, many institutions with origins in antiquity (schools, governments, NGO's) are close enough to the orga…

Corporations are literally the something-extra over a "group of actors working together".

Re: Dude, You Broke the Future (2017)

#28

Robert Miles has an interesting response to the claim that corporations are AIs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5pUA3LsEaw To paraphrase: yes, corporations function as agents, but their maximum performance is limited by the capabilities of their employees. A corporate AI may have a much broader set of skills than any single person, and may be able to tackle many concurrent tasks, but as an "intelligent agent" its d…

> In the sense that a corporation's maximum intelligence is likely to be in the same ballpark as the smartest humans, it can't be seen as a true superintelligence.

In what sense? Certainly the ability of large groups of people to research and create new technology exceed the ability of a single individual. The R&D capabilities of a large corporation are going to vastly exceed that of a lone hermit in the woods.

Re: Dude, You Broke the Future (2017)

#29
post #12

> Nobody in 2007 was expecting a Nazi revival in 2017, right? Is that actually true? I seem to remember people predicting that usa has been edging towards facism for a while now, especially in the aftermath of 9/11. For example here is an article from 2003 predicting usa is heading towards fasicism https://secularhumanism.org/2003/03/fascism-anyone/

Nobody among the intellectual class anticipated Trump's election in 2016. Much like physicists hypothesized dark matter to account for the apparent greater mass necessary to stabilize galaxies and such, the political intelligentsia hypothesized an enormous, hidden body of "dark Nazis" to account for their chosen candidate not winning the election. It is unfathomable to them that enough people in the center, center-right, and right could be discontent enough with being told whom to vote for and why someone running on a platform of tighter immigration controls and more jobs for Americans is evil incarnate, that they were willing to "hold their nose and vote for Trump", to swing the election in his favor.

Political intellectuals tend to lean left, and whenever a rightist scores a major political victory they start predicting stormtroopers goosestepping through American streets Real Soon Now, going back to at least Reagan. So the Nazi Revival is generally accepted as real, and if you contest the idea's truth you may be considered one of them.

Re: Dude, You Broke the Future (2017)

#30
post #12

> Nobody in 2007 was expecting a Nazi revival in 2017, right? Is that actually true? I seem to remember people predicting that usa has been edging towards facism for a while now, especially in the aftermath of 9/11. For example here is an article from 2003 predicting usa is heading towards fasicism https://secularhumanism.org/2003/03/fascism-anyone/

American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War On America , by Chris Hedges, was published in 2007.
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