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War over Being Nice

josephg.com

21–29 of 29 posts

Re: War over Being Nice

#21

I get it, but the author completely misses the point when it comes to the exchange of power between people. Think man vs women Black person vs police Boss vs employee suddenly culture A breaks down because people in power get upset and then abuse their power. I guess you can say "they are only in charge of their emotions" but when people can be fired or killed, it stops being a thing. I've been in culture A (the mili…

Both A and B are very easy to abuse and in practice they are often both "bad" because in bigger groups there are always conflicts and personal interests, and some people that will do whatever to have it their way, and most often there is no "adult in the room" (someone with no personal stake in the conflict with power to moderate the group behavior).

A turns into war, bulling and tyranny, B turns into toxic cesspool of blame and playing a victim. Especially that there's a mechanism of self-selection, and people fed up with the group tend to leave.

If you're a parent you see a micro-versions of both almost all the time in kids interacting with each other.

Most people with reasonable life experience must have been involved repeatedly in groups with both A and B cultures, some of which worked great, and some of which were terrible. The difference is not in A/B but in particular group dynamics, their morals etc.

IMO, A healthy, well-rounded adult should be able to encompass and integrate both cultures and fluently switch them depending on the context and a need at hand, and not fall into worst version of any.

Re: War over Being Nice

#22

I think framing this A/B divide in terms of sex is needlessly conflating different topics. Surely there's a statistical bias of some sort, but it doesn't really add to this conversation.

I think the focus is more on a masculine (A) vs feminine (B) divide rather than sex. It's just that the majority of men lean towards more masculinity than femininity and vise versa for women. I find this aspect to be very essential to the topic at hand, which I believe to be the societal pressures to pick one of the sides and abandon individual thought.

Re: War over Being Nice

#23

I get it, but the author completely misses the point when it comes to the exchange of power between people. Think man vs women Black person vs police Boss vs employee suddenly culture A breaks down because people in power get upset and then abuse their power. I guess you can say "they are only in charge of their emotions" but when people can be fired or killed, it stops being a thing. I've been in culture A (the mili…

> the author completely misses the point when it comes to the exchange of power between people.

Resistance to a power structure is a conflict.

Re: War over Being Nice

#24
post #4

Tolerance traditionally means tolerating people. This has been shifted (some would say cynically) to mean tolerating ideas. The traditional meaning allows you to have a society. You can live next to someone who you disagree with. The new meaning is a profoundly negative one. It means that if you are tolerant, then there is something wrong with you, because you are tolerating bad ideas. A society that embraces the sec…

I don't buy your broad definitions and I believe you're being disingenuous.

Ideas, tolerance, and their cross-sections are not binary.

Re: War over Being Nice

#25

These differences between culture A and B are something me and the Wife have been talking about for years. They are mostly in the B group and I in the A. I'm glad that others are seeing the distinction and starting conversations about it. I found the language the author used to describe each interesting. The "masculine"/"feminine" dichotomy seems to cause those in group B to take offense, in my experience, due to the…

While you have every right to think someone's shoes are bad, you are not always free to express this thought carelessly with no regard for others. In more common words, you're free to express your opinion, but you're absolutely not free from the consequences of expressing it, and it's unreasonable to expect no consequences ever.

It's a balancing act of reasonability, and some people are indeed bad actors. Like people walking past eachother on the sidewalk, some people are (unreasonably) upset when not everyone gets out of their way. While we're responsible for making reasonable (but not absolute) effort not to bump into eachother, "reasonable" is socially determined. It can feel unsatisfactory without a game-proof absolute rule, but it really does work.

Re: War over Being Nice

#26

I get it, but the author completely misses the point when it comes to the exchange of power between people. Think man vs women Black person vs police Boss vs employee suddenly culture A breaks down because people in power get upset and then abuse their power. I guess you can say "they are only in charge of their emotions" but when people can be fired or killed, it stops being a thing. I've been in culture A (the mili…

> suddenly culture A breaks down because people in power get upset and then abuse their power.

This is a great point! In power relationship, "culture A" is often one-sided. The boss says whatever he wants, and he boasts about an environment of openness or whatever. But the employees know that if they tried the same, they would get fired. So this only adds an insult to injury, not only you have to endure the manners of your boss, you also have to pretend that everything is okay and symmetric, when it obviously is not.

(When your boss insists that there is no hierarchy and everyone can freely speak their mind, this is your last warning to shut up. Hint: In genuinely safe environments, you usually don't need to remind people regularly that the environment is safe; they already know, based on their previous experience and observations. So if the boss doth protest too much...)

On the other hand, I believe it is perfectly safe to talk back to Linus Torvalds. In this case, the "culture A" really is symmetric. Ironically, the reason he is attacked is because it is safe to attack him. (If you need to publicly provide an example of toxic behavior, it is safer to name Linus than someone who could actually punish you for doing so.)

In real, I suppose almost no one would be a "culture A" or "culture B" absolutist. When Bob says something to James and James starts crying... most people would ask what exactly Bob said, and decide accordingly.

I suspect people usually want context-less rules if they plan to abuse them. If you enjoy bullying people, you have an incentive to promote "culture A"; if you enjoy playing victim and blackmailing emotionallly, you have an incentive to promote "culture A". Otherwise, you will probably agree that some things are okay and some are not okay, even if we wouldn't agree on where exactly the line is.

Re: War over Being Nice

#27

These differences between culture A and B are something me and the Wife have been talking about for years. They are mostly in the B group and I in the A. I'm glad that others are seeing the distinction and starting conversations about it. I found the language the author used to describe each interesting. The "masculine"/"feminine" dichotomy seems to cause those in group B to take offense, in my experience, due to the…

This is an extremely important topic to which I had been given far too much useless or unrelatable advice for a very long time. I think in the language of the OP the goal of relationship partners, should be to strive towards the top right corner of that map, to become coordinators.

Like yourself, I have a partner that is a different culture than myself; I leaning towards A, and them to B.

It was a constant source of bickering for us because I'd never be able to express myself fully without affecting her negatively. Being too considered in my speech, would keep them calm but would leave me dissatisfied, which would make the next one worse. During fights, only after being sufficiently emotionally exhausted we'd come to accept each other's "incorrect" perspective and move on. We share a lot of values, so that isn't hard and we were quite happy on the whole.

There was a point about a year ago where some acute external stress started to weigh down on us, and we were increasingly getting worse at resolving those arguments. I tried to take their feedback at face value, by trying to be accommodating of their stated needs. But that too failed miserably. In fact I was now being similarly emotionally devastated, for things that usually would be a quick quarrel. Because of all the extra emotional work I was trying to do, and didn't have the stamina for.

We recognized it was a deteriorating condition, so somehow my partner brought up the idea of going through The 5 Love Languages book. Neither of us had read it before, but the audiobook was on YouTube, so it couldn't hurt. Long story "short", that book has revolutionized the way we communicate. It was night and day difference within a week, and we haven't been happier.

My key takeaway from the book wasn't that we were different cultures (while that is still true). It was that there are some very simple but powerful techniques, that allow you and your partner to store much more emotional energy in your reservoir (book calls it "love tank") so communication mismatches can be handled much more gracefully. In the end, we can approach disagreements in either style, depending on subject.

Re: War over Being Nice

#28

I get it, but the author completely misses the point when it comes to the exchange of power between people. Think man vs women Black person vs police Boss vs employee suddenly culture A breaks down because people in power get upset and then abuse their power. I guess you can say "they are only in charge of their emotions" but when people can be fired or killed, it stops being a thing. I've been in culture A (the mili…

While Culture A and B are contrived for the sake of discussion in my experience people advocating for Culture B do so out of being on the losing end of Culture A. However, these people don't seem to be interested in maintaining a shift to Culture B but rather in using aspects of B "shame,conformity,arguments from personal inner experiences" to attain a dominant role in an A type Culture. Cancel culture seems to be a mechanism to change the winners in Culture A not to create a Culture B.
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